In this episode of the Intentional Evolution Podcast, host Vision Battlesword and guest Jessica Stepnowski explore the concept of surrender within personal and spiritual evolution. Jessica Stepnowski shares her journey of shifting identity from “coach” to becoming a facilitator of deep self-remembering through Akashic reading and medicine work. The discussion delves into how surrender is essential for evolution, not as defeat, but as a process that allows us to release attachments, integrate painful emotions, and make space for new growth.

Together, they examine mainstream beliefs that associate surrender with failure, emphasizing how cultural conditioning around hustle and winning can block deeper transformation. Through experiences in plant medicine ceremonies and energy work, both speakers highlight surrender as an active, mindful letting go—creating space for the unknown, acceptance, and aliveness.

Key topics include nervous system responses (fight, flight, freeze, fawn, fold), the paradox of persistence versus surrender, and reframing emotions not as positive/negative, but as teachers. The conversation touches on trust, knowing versus believing, and the magic of releasing control over details in manifestation, seeing surrender as a portal to deeper fulfillment. Though politics and integral theory are not explicitly discussed, the episode integrates psychological, spiritual, and cultural perspectives, offering a holistic reflection on how surrender serves intentional evolution.

Listeners are invited to reconsider attachment to outcomes, embrace emotional depth, and see surrender not as weakness but as the gateway to their most authentic, alive selves.

Show Notes

Chapters

• 00:00— Welcoming Jessica & Why "Surrender"
• 00:55— Who is Jessica? Identity, Devotion & Remembering Your Essence
• 04:08— What is Intentional Evolution? Agency, Choice & Remembering
• 05:08— The Polarity of Surrender and Willpower
• 06:31— Why Surrender? Identity Death, Grief, and Attunement
• 08:51— Evolution, Resistance, and the Role of Suffering
• 10:42— Letting Go: Dr. David Hawkins, Alchemy, and Emotional Sensation
• 14:01— Roadblocks, Persistence vs. Surrender, and the “Never Quit” Paradigm
• 16:35— Redefining Surrender: Letting Go of Outcome, Moving Beyond Suffering
• 18:27— The Mainstream Fear of Surrender (Failure, Loss, Shame)
• 20:22— Surrender in Spiritual Practice & Medicine Ceremony
• 24:00— Anger, Resistance, and the Emotional Process of Surrender
• 26:37— Applying Surrender to Everyday Life & Aliveness
• 28:15— Jessica’s Career Void: Resourcefulness & Coming Into Nothingness
• 32:21— Embodiment: Surrender as Effortless Magic
• 34:02— Nervous System Responses: Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn, Fold
• 36:13— Fold as Thriving: Bowing, Melting, and Making Space for All Parts
• 39:10— The Self-Improvement Trap & Accepting All Parts of Self
• 42:54— Surrender, Gratitude, and Alchemizing Suffering
• 45:47— Pain to Power: The Alchemy of Fully Felt Emotions
• 48:02— Are There “Negative” Emotions? Shame, Anger, and Their Purpose
• 51:17— The Usefulness of Shame, Guilt, and Anger
• 54:15— Vision’s Model: Emotions as Internal Compass and Tools
• 58:03— Surrender as Radical Aliveness
• 59:19— Dialogue with Emotions, Non-Judgment, and Curiosity
• 62:22— Can You Surrender Too Much? Intentionality vs. Apathy
• 65:55— Surrender as an Active Process: Stories from Jessica
• 68:14— Surrendering to Process: Manifestation, Desire, and Openness to Outcomes
• 72:24— Knowing vs. Believing: Trust and the Path to Inner Knowing
• 76:09— Trust: The Bridge Between Belief and Knowledge
• 79:13— How to Find Trust in Moments of Surrender
• 84:14— Summary: Surrender as Aliveness and a Portal to Becoming
• 85:19— Surrender, Death, and the Magic of Letting Go
• 88:27— Jessica’s Work & Where You Can Connect
• 91:23— Closing & Future Invitations

[00:00:00] Vision Battlesword: Hello, welcome to the Intentional Evolution Podcast. I am your host, Vision Battlesword, integral consultant and founder of iEvolve Life, a personal and professional development practice based on the philosophy of Intentional Evolution. This podcast is an ongoing conversation to explore that philosophy as well as to serve as a resource, a showcase, and a catalyst for ongoing growth toward the human singularity.

That is to say. Mass awakening of new consciousness, super intelligence and radical creative flourishing. Each episode, I'll feature a world class transformational facilitator, co-creator or friend to reveal cutting edge psychospiritual technology, unpack our deepest wisdom and evolve our awareness. This series is based on value for value, so whatever value you receive from these transmissions, please return some value back in the form of a donation directly supporting our contributors or offering your own time and talent as a producer.

Thanks for joining me in this journey, and now here's our episode. Well, thanks again for stopping by to have an Intentional Evolution conversation.

[00:01:14] Jessica Stepnowski: I'm so excited to be here.

[00:01:15] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, and I'm excited for the topic that you suggested because this, this feels very on point and on theme for our mission, what it is that we're doing here.

It's not something I probably would've thought to explore, which is why like this whole dialectical process is so important. Getting different perspectives and getting different people together with their skills and their wisdom and their experience, but also their different ways of looking at things.

So I'm really glad that you suggested this, and it's gonna be really fun, and I think maybe even a little vulnerable for me to dig into it with you, but I'm getting ahead of myself because before we open up that topic, I want to ask you a very important question, which is, who are you? Jessica Kowski.

[00:02:02] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm-hmm. Mm. That's a loaded question. And I've been playing around with the identity of myself, and I think that goes into our topic of surrender because when you're on this path of devotion to your full self, all of you, you surrender into what it is that you actually are. And going into a slight context for the last six years, I identified as coach.

I identified as someone who was here to support people and help them get better into who they're becoming. And that's still my mission at my core. But the coach identity kind of evolved for me and I was kind of grieving that a bit because I was like, I don't know if I identify with coach. And now that I'm here, I've been really sitting with who am I?

And what really feels true is someone who it's so, it's so silly that it's like someone who has really been given an opportunity to come to this planet. 'cause I believe we're all just slight beings in a flesh suit. In our own way and diff from different planets and origins. And that comes way back from like my Akashic experiences.

And now that I do Akashic readings, I get that now. And I really feel that my mission is to really help people attune to their own frequency of who they're supposed to be and who they've been all along the sense of remembering. And I could say, yes, I'm psychic. I'm in IC channel, I'm a medicine woman.

Like all those, I'm sage, mystic, like all those identify with me. And also I'm in a process of still connecting with the root and then also surrendering into who I am. Maybe it's an energetic essence of myself that I just represent. My mission is really to help people evolve into their becoming and. I love to take people into the depths of their shadow, like the deep, dark depths, and I think that's where my inner medicine woman loves to come out, because whether I'm like facilitating medicine or working with somebody in a ceremonial essence, it's this sense of helping someone really unravel all of themselves this surrender that we're about to get into this letting go of like the grips and the identities and the attachments and the rules and like coming back into an ego shattering death of like, what if you're nothing?

Who are you then? And I love helping people pick the right pieces for their puzzle that are really in alignment with that blank state of I am nothing. Who do I get to be? Who am I remembering I get to be,

[00:04:57] Vision Battlesword: Hmm, I like that frame. I don't know that I've heard that before or thought about it that way before. Who am I remembering that I get to be?

[00:05:08] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm.

[00:05:08] Vision Battlesword: That's cool.

[00:05:09] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:10] Vision Battlesword: I like that. What does Intentional Evolution mean to you?

[00:05:16] Jessica Stepnowski: Hmm. Intentional Evolution is to me, this conscious choice to evolve into the version of myself that I'm remembering to be. It is not a accident, it's not unconscious, but it's consciously choosing to release and let go stories, narratives, identities, personas, job titles, and really intentionally discovering who you are.

And I feel that for a lot of people, and myself included, there is sometimes that unintentional unraveling, like, oh, I tried this. I went with my, my logic versus my heart, or what have you, and it brought me to the place of here. Right? So I always feel like we're. Evolving, but I think that there's this beautiful essence of having this sense of choice in what we're evolving into or what we're stewarding forward.

[00:06:16] Vision Battlesword: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's interesting for me to think about the concept of surrender within the construct of Intentional Evolution. Mm. And especially being who I am, whatever that means, or believing whatever it is that I believe about myself and the world, and my role and Intentional Evolution. Because the way that I typically frame Intentional Evolution, I'm realizing in this moment as we go on this discovery together, is in very active, very positive, very Take ownership.

Take responsibility, exercise our intent, our will, our desired choice to shape. How we like to see this collective reality unfold. So my question to myself in this moment is, where does surrender come into that? Or how does surrender affect that? It's almost like the negative image of the positive concept that I've been carrying about Intentional Evolution since the phrase first occurred to me, which was about five or six years ago.

So this is all very interesting to me. And yeah, I really like the framing that you put on it. And I'm curious, why did you choose surrender as the topic of our conversation, or why is that so alive for you right now?

[00:07:40] Jessica Stepnowski: Hmm. I don't think we can evolve without surrender. We have to be able to find our truth within, and that is surrender.

We have to see our highest vision and go after that. That's surrender. There's so many parts of ourselves that require surrender in order to become who we really wanna be or who we're remembering to be. It's not just surrendering to the circumstances negatively in a way. Or if like you're in a place right now where you're like, Ugh, like this sucks at where I'm at and I have to surrender into it.

It's also surrendering into what God, universe source has given you as an opportunity to uphold a vision for yourself. And there's so many nuances of like what actually surrender is, but it's alive for me because I thought I had to be something. Like, again, coming back to this identity of coach and, and what I thought I had to be, and that's who I was.

I was so like in my mind, like that's who I am. That's who I am, that's what I'm identifying as. And then when it started to just this little spark in my brain that was like, Hmm, I don't know. I don't know. And it brought me into a place of anger at first. So I think for a lot of people on this path of Intentional Evolution, you have this idea that you're so attached to, we all do, of who I think I should be.

And this is my title. This is what I do, this is how I make money, this is the type of relationships I want. But then you're faced with these circumstances in life that make you curious about what you attach to. And for my career over the last six years, it's been this deepening of surrender, deepening of who am I, what am I here to do?

Who am I really? And getting curious about what my beliefs are. And with surrendering it leads you to that next step. And so I'm so passionate about it because I wouldn't be where I'm at without. The actual definition of surrender or what it actually entails to fully surrender.

[00:10:00] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Fascinating. When we start to think about Intentional Evolution and this path of personal development or spiritual development, self-improvement, it always seems to inherently suggest that there is a goal, that there's a future state of me that I look different, or there's a way in which I want to evolve to transform and surrender is sort of inherently the opposite of that.

Sort of like there's a yin yang, there's a positive negative polarity. There's a binary. It almost feels like between I know exactly where I'm going, I'm self-motivated and I'm getting myself there, versus. I have no control of this situation. Mm. Or I choose to release my control. I choose to. Now the word power is gonna come up, and I wanna explore that in a minute.

I was gonna say, I choose to release my power, but maybe that's actually not

[00:11:00] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm.

[00:11:00] Vision Battlesword: Necessarily what surrender's about. But you did bring up that classic sense or feeling that we get from surrender, which is, I have lost, I capitulate, the battle is over. I didn't win. Or I choose to stop fighting. Whatever that is.

There's a, there's a conflict orientation to it sometimes, so Yeah. To me that's just very interesting when you say that surrender is a part of Intentional Evolution or surrender is a part of evolution in general, an evolutionary process. And I like that because it's sort of giving space to. That, which we don't know that, which we can't predict that which comes from somewhere other than ourself, a power higher than ourself, like you were saying.

I don't know, am I picking up what you're putting down?

[00:11:51] Jessica Stepnowski: Yeah. I love what you're sharing on the unknowing definition in the spiritual context of surrender, because it's not giving up your power, it's actually leaning into the sensations, the, the subtleties. And I wanna go into that a little bit because what I've noticed with surrender and also just reading a fantastic book, um, letting Go Pathway to Surrender by Dr.

David Hawkins, um, one of my biggest spiritual teachers over the last six years as well, and what he shares a lot is this essence of letting go isn't actually like letting go of a dream or letting go of a aspiration. It's letting go of the sensations. And the emotions that you're feeling in the moment that are actually creating the suffering.

Surrendering is actually about letting go of the suffering. And I think all of us that are listening to this can at least say at least once, probably more, that when we're on this path of devoting ourselves to vision, devoting ourselves to our desires, there's gonna be roadblocks. And then you get that moment of what do I do?

Do I surrender into this? And a lot of people are like, I don't wanna surrender, I don't wanna let go. Like I have this vision, why would I let that go? But surrender is actually this essence of the attachment of how you're getting there and the sensations, the emotions. And it's like, how do we allow ourselves to feel into the sensation, into the emotion that's actually creating the suffering?

It's that, and I've noticed with myself, the more that I detach, attach this. Logical pathway. I am gonna get A, B, C here, I'm here. Versus our guidance system, which is spirit, God's first creator, bringing us into this specific pathway that we don't have conscious awareness of, and I don't think we're supposed to.

I think that surrender brings us into a deeper devotion to ourselves and also our mission. And when we are so attached to the way that it looks, and then those outcomes, those feelings, we're missing the point. And when we allow ourselves to let go of how it's supposed to look and lean into what is the lesson here, because that lesson here that you think is the roadblock is actually probably the entry point into the next.

Level of yourself, but you're not thinking it that way. So when you actually take apart this sense of surrender, I'm like mentally visioning this in my, in my mind. So maybe a felt sense envisioning this sense of seeing the roadblock as a challenge and anger and frustration and guilt and shame. It's like what are all of those emotions actually saying about yourself, and can that be the pathway that you need to see, feel, touch, taste, move through to actually get to the goal?

Maybe that part of it was there all along. What's your thoughts on that?

[00:15:09] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, I've certainly had that experience a number of times in my life. I would guess almost everyone could relate to that experience of there's a goal, there's a destination, there's a dream, a vision, whatever. We're on a path, we're moving toward it.

We're trying to get to it. There's some resistance, some obstacle. There's just something that we eventually just, we run out of fight. And in that moment of quote unquote giving up or capitulating to the obstacle, a new path emerges some, something else presents itself. Or there's some way that we realize that the actual act of relaxing in the situation or choosing the path of inaction rather than action or coming back to an open-mindedness about other paths or possibilities, that is the solution.

And as you say, it may seem to have been there all along, but we couldn't get there until we gave up. And also I think there's a school of thought that would say something along the lines of, never give up, never surrender. Mm. Persistence will always overcome any obstacle effort, resolve, discipline, whatever these words are.

It's always possible to overcome an obstacle. Giving up is the path of quitting. That's the path of losing, that's demonstrating insufficient, oh, help me find the word here. Insufficient, uh, dedication. I think maybe it was the word I was looking for. It's like, yeah, you just, you didn't, you didn't want it enough.

Yeah. You didn't want it enough. And I don't

[00:17:01] Jessica Stepnowski: believe that.

[00:17:02] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. And I'm just, I'm just kind of surfacing different ideas or perspectives or viewpoints that people might have and just sort of, I don't know, wanting to give honor to, there is a spirit of persistence, which can be valuable,

[00:17:16] Jessica Stepnowski: but can you be persistent and still surrender?

[00:17:19] Vision Battlesword: That's a good question. Yeah. What does that, and what does that look like and the, yeah. And I think when we start to get into these, some of these spiritual wisdom, a lot of times we find paradoxes. Mm-hmm. Don't we? We find somehow, yes. It's both form and emptiness. It's both, yeah. Desire and non-attachment.

It's both persistence and surrender. Maybe. I don't know what, what is surrender?

[00:17:44] Jessica Stepnowski: It's the sense of letting go because when you're attached, there's the opposing is the suffering when you don't have the thing that you want. And the way that I would identify it is the sense of letting go of the attachment to the sensation.

Letting go of the attachment to the desire, letting go of the way that it's supposed to look. And it's not this act of failure or lack of discipline. I think that it's actually widening your capacity to almost have a bigger picture of what you're looking forward to, what have you. And when we allow ourselves to surrender to circumstances, surrender to what is or not giving up, it's more of this attunement to what our truth is in the moment and allowing ourselves to have this sense of.

Reverence for what we're feeling of like, I'm angry, I am grieving, I'm, I am sad, I'm hurt. And it's like, how do we actually look at that as like, that's the suffering. It's not the suffering that I didn't get to the goal. It's the suffering of the emotions that are attached to the thing that I want. And I think that's a really interesting concept, especially with Dr.

Hawkins talking a lot about that in his book, and it kind of tickles your brain a little bit because you're like, wait, so if I actually allow myself to feel the feeling that I'm feeling, not suppress it, repress it or change it, but feel it, then it goes away. So then I'm not suffering. And then you're like reorienting yourself to like, what does it actually mean to desire something?

You know?

[00:19:37] Vision Battlesword: I really want to go down that rabbit hole because desire is like a really big thing for me. Yeah. In in my whole. Philosophy and the way of looking at the world. And I just wanna explore, surrender in the mainstream consciousness a little bit more on our way to that. Because you've dropped a word a couple of times now, which is failure.

I should have said, you've dropped an F bomb. You've mentioned this word failure a few times. And I think that the way that we are taught about the concept of surrender in our culture attaches those two things together. Surrender equals failure. Yeah. Or you're in a lot of ways,

[00:20:22] Jessica Stepnowski: you're not doing anything.

You're just doing nothing.

[00:20:25] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Or, or worse than that, it seems to me, and I, I know I keep kind of bringing it back to almost, uh. Military analogy, but I think I'm doing that because people have a lot of those conceptual attachments and associations to the term, which is to say, to surrender means you have been beaten.

It means, you know, it's almost like I have suffered harm or I have suffered at least loss in some way. I have been dominated. I think people could have that association with surrender, but certainly failure, which is such a big block to us in our hustle culture and materialist paradigm, this type of economy, this type of society that we find ourselves in.

That concept of failure is really heavy for a lot of people. It creates a lot of suffering and it also creates a lot of disappointment, disillusionment, fear. So yeah, I just want to kind of break a lot of that. See, see if we can break some of that stuff down. Yeah. On our way to like, what is a different form of surrender that you and people like you and me and many others may have experienced through spiritual practice or medicine ceremony, or these different ways that we've learned a different relationship with that word and with that concept that's actually got very positive connotations to it.

But how do we shake off surrender as having been beaten, dominated, lost, or failed?

[00:22:02] Jessica Stepnowski: Hmm. I think first it's, it's looking at what it brings up within you. When we think about this attachment to these things or this sense of like, I failed and that means. I'm bad. That means I suck. That means blah, blah, blah.

Right? And what that's actually bringing in, it has nothing. It's almost like this interesting construct that I'm wrapping my brain around is this essence of surrender. Getting to a goal, being something actually has no meaning until you give it it because of the belief systems you have within yourself.

And you're making this sense of suffering failure, I am this, I'm weak, I'm blah, blah, blah, meaning something because of the attachment to it. It's not the actual thing of itself. And what we're doing when we're really debunking surrender and having more of a broader spectrum, or making room, I should say, for a broader spectrum and perspective of surrender, is really looking at.

The feelings that that brings up within you, and can you lean into that? Can you feel those? Can you create a sense of, dare I say it, comfort with the uncomfort? And when you allow yourself to look at what's blocking you, the sense of failure, lack of dedication. I'm not cut out for this sort of, uh, jargon that comes up.

It's what is my association with failure? What is my association with being bad or being weak? And when you can actually get into the depth of that, that's where you start to open your mind to say, oh, this is not what this means. I'm not bad, it's just I'm leaning into a new, I'm leaning into more of myself in a way.

And it's bringing, it's making me think about. To me, the depth of surrender when you're in medicine ceremony, for example, because you can't escape it. You can escape your life, you can numb out, when you're in medicine ceremony, leaning into the edge of surrender, you can't go anywhere and you're, you're in your mind.

And the medicine has really taught me this sense of, like, it's really helped me create a different perspective of surrender because it's how do I be with the discomfort? How do I be with the emotions and the sensations and the, the aggravation that I might feel to like not be able to change the channel in a way?

And I relate that a lot to what I've experienced, many, many others with a sense of failure or surrendering. And you got dominated, right? And it's like there's so much to learn when you see your relationship with the sensations attached to those words that the negative connotation, surrender can bring.

[00:25:09] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, it's really interesting for me in particular, earlier in the conversation, you brought up the word anger and you, you talked about like having this experience of almost like there's a process sometimes to getting to surrender. And maybe what we're talking about here is how we can shortcut that process and what that looks like and the usefulness of that.

But there can be like a process of getting there, which is at first there's the fight part. Mm-hmm. There's the

[00:25:38] Jessica Stepnowski: resistance.

[00:25:38] Vision Battlesword: Resistance. Yeah. And, and, and that can feel like anger, that can feel like frustration, that can feel like these different emotions that, in my opinion and like frame of reference are useful to us as a form of gathering, energy, gathering motivational force to face a problem or.

A challenge to resolve it. And that's sort of how I think of what anger is for, or these other associated emotions. But then in medicine ceremony, to your point, you can get angry all you want.

[00:26:09] Jessica Stepnowski: Yeah.

[00:26:11] Vision Battlesword: And I'm not gonna say that there aren't, there's not an aspect of self-control that we can have and that there's not an aspect of choosing our own ex adventure or co-creating our own experience.

And also there's times when surrender is the only option. And like I can say that for myself, that in and of itself has been a really useful lesson. There is some medicine in that, weirdly. Mm-hmm. There is some medicine just in that act of surrender that I have found for myself where when I get to that point where I've given up the fight and I finally do just relax.

Into the experience of whatever it is that's happening. Um, I, I can be completely amazed and completely surprised the ways which my experience suddenly changes and new experience or new information or something much, much richer unfolds from the moment the fight itself. It's almost like the resistance

[00:27:22] Jessica Stepnowski: of control,

[00:27:23] Vision Battlesword: the resistance to the experience mm-hmm.

That's happening to us. Yeah. Is constricting our ability to actually receive it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And then, and I, I guess the whole point of me sharing this like anecdote is to say that I'm. Cla a classic fighter. You know, I, I will, I will resist to the bitter end. It is like same. Yeah. I'm so grateful to, we're so used to that.

I'm so grateful to, in particular, for example, ayahuasca. Mm-hmm. For helping me to learn that surrender to, for helping to teach me how to surrender to a moment and then bring that back into my life when I just, when I would just like to have the experience of being more alive.

[00:28:10] Jessica Stepnowski: So can we apply that to just the definition of surrender?

[00:28:14] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. How would you do that?

[00:28:15] Jessica Stepnowski: Well, exactly what you said. I, I think it's like a, a homecoming when you can create this relationship with surrender and open your perspective to saying it can help me become more alive. It can help me loosen the grip of control. To acknowledge that anything in front of me, I have the capacity to hold.

Because I think for a lot of us, we resist it because of the emotions. We're afraid to feel the fear. We're fear. We're fearing the fear, we're fearing the resistance. We're fearing the emotional pain of what surrender looks like, right? Because we don't think that we have the capacity to hold it and move on.

[00:28:54] Vision Battlesword: Right. And I think we. Fear, whatever is on the other side of that surrender. Yep. Which is actually a figment of our imagination. There may or may not be consequences to surrendering. We may or may not accurately predict them sometimes, but what's definitely for sure is that we create a picture of that in our mind, in imagination, a prediction.

And that is the thing that is causing us suffering prior to the surrender.

[00:29:24] Jessica Stepnowski: Yes. Yeah. And I think that's my intention with, with this conversation is to widen, widen your capacity to hold a new perspective, what surrender can look like for your yourself and your life. And I know for me, uh, like in the beginning of 2025, so beginning of this year, I had this whole perception, like I had a huge, like last fall was like the biggest financial.

Part of my career consistently. And then it was like started to taper off and then started to go downhill. And I took it so personal and I was like, what does this mean? And I South Ayahuasca last summer of 2024. And so the calling of, you're here to serve ayahuasca, this is your, this is like, this is your path.

You've been chosen to this. You're a medicine woman. And I'm like, I got home. And I'm like, how do I fit that into coaching? What do I do? Do I start? You know, and I'm like, my brain's going everywhere, right? I'm excited, but also like kind of like overwhelmed of like, what do I do with that? And so as the tapering off in the beginning of this year, and I've really had to resource myself, I had to lean into the sense of surrender more than I ever have because what was working stopped working.

And I was really frustrated because of all the things, right? I was so attached to it, working before attached to the clients, attached to the pro, all the things, right? And so when I leaned into it, it brought me into a void. It brought me into blank slate of like, you are, you are nothing right now. Nothing.

Who do you get to be? And I had to, I had so much resistance and a lot of battling of who I should be and what hat do I put on now? And it's almost like. When you're stripped bare of everything that, like you've resourced everything, you've done all the things in the past that have worked before, you're, you're getting creative and it's still not working.

You are in a deep state of letting go. You're in a deep state of a, of attachment or releasing attachment. And the beauty of that, when I released more and more and more of like, okay, I'm not coaching anymore. I'm throwing that word out. I am not, um, doing programs anymore at the time. I'm throwing that out.

I am not making money the way that I used to. I'm throwing that out, right? All of these identities and personas and awards that I had, if in a way, um, sort of just, just like flush out and I was blank, it gave me more, it gave me an opportunity to sit with the discomfort, which again, alluding to what you were sharing in the medicine ceremonies, the sense of surrendering into the moment and then finding the bliss in the other side to come back into a aliveness.

And if I didn't surrender, and if I pushed, I could have totally pushed, I could have totally pushed, I could have got a loan, I could have hired another business coach. I could have done to so many things, but there was a little voice that was like, I think you should do nothing. And I was like, oh, you know, like my, my, my inner Capricorn is like, don't do nothing.

Right? And like, I'm just such a masculine driven person when it comes to work. And so leaning into that and all the things, so basically it broke me down into nothing so that I could really find myself in the becoming, like again, like taking those puzzle pieces of like. That actually feels resonant. Oh, I've done that before and that feels really alive for me.

I'm gonna bring that in and that and, and then it brought me into where I'm at now. And then all of a sudden my friend was like, I'm holding a Kashic record container and I'm gonna help you open the records. All I knew was I wanna connect more with spirit on a deeper level. I don't have to sit in ayahuasca ceremonies or mushroom ceremonies and to connect.

And then everything just was like, this is why you couldn't do this. You had to be here. But if I was pushing and still in that resistance, I don't know if I would. I think I would've prevented. I mean, even though I think we're always on path, but I think I would've potentially prolonged. So I think me getting here and feeling so rooted in myself and doing the work that I'm doing now that is feeling effortless.

It's like, oh, so surrender is good.

[00:33:28] Vision Battlesword: Hmm. I like that. That word that you dropped at the very end there, effortless. That's surrender. That's. Effort less. You know, I wrote down some words when I was kind of thinking about this, the different ways that we resist surrender. And I kind of realized, I think that there's something about the nervous system, relaxation of surrender.

There's something about like, when we're at the moment, when, when, when we come to, when our body, our spirit, and our consciousness comes to the moment of accepting acceptance, I think there's, there's a big connection between acceptance and surrender. When we accept that we will die in that moment, we may believe we are about to die and accept it, and there's a state of nervous system relaxation that we can eventually find, which is where we stop fighting, we accept it, and then everything becomes very peaceful.

And so I, I wrote down the words, fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. I feel like these are our nervous system responses. These are our survival instincts. Right? These is like our survival strategy. Not exactly strategies, but we may call them strategies. Strategies. Strategies. Yeah. In evolutionary sense. Yeah. But instincts almost, um, reflexes in, they're all sort of different ways of trying to preserve our life or they're all sort of different ways that we still could win.

Hmm. I'll, I'll fight it off. Anger. I'll run away. Fear I'll freeze. Which I don't shut down. Yeah. Well free. So this is the point I was about to make actually. I think there might be a fifth because it's, it seems to me that freeze is not exactly identical to shut down. It seems to me that it's more. Of a state of shock, high alert, but where the strategy is to disappear to become invisible.

Mm-hmm.

[00:35:34] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:34] Vision Battlesword: And it occurred to me that maybe the emotion, maybe the emotional ener, energetic signature to that is shame potentially that the instinct to want to disappear, to not be seen. This is probably an imperfect mapping. I'm sort of like roughing this out. But yeah, if we've got fight, flight, anger, fear, freeze, shame, still tense.

There's a, there's a tension to it. There's a hypervigilance to it. I don't think it's exactly surrender, even Fawn, fawn, the strategy or, or the impulse is to get you to like me or to somehow seduce you or to, in some way, I'm going to remove the threat by befriending you. Mm-hmm. That's another way, I think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Befriend, I think is another way that sometimes people frame these survival instincts. I'm not sure exactly what, what emotional. Signature that may have, but for now it's not super important. A friend of mine suggested that there may be a fifth word, which is fold, and that maybe is the state of surrender.

Maybe that is the, it's not a survival strategy, or maybe it is a survival strategy, because by going into that relaxed state, you know, it's sometimes maybe called playing dead. Something along those lines, going into a completely fully relaxed state is a way of surviving. Or at, at minimum, it's a way of going into a state of acceptance and relieving the suffering.

So I just, I, I was just bringing that up, just like thinking of like these different ways that we can resist the act of surrender and then putting surrender kind of on that list. And I think I've basically said everything I wanna say and there's no real better way to wrap it up than that.

[00:37:22] Jessica Stepnowski: I love that.

Um, what came to mind intuitively was folding is like a bow of like, thank you. Like, I'm here to act. I don't think it's, I think it's a thriving strategy.

I love that. Can I

fold? Can I, can I lean into, can I melt into my circumstance and just relax into, this is actually happening for me. How. Instead of trying to figure it out logically, can I just be with all of my small parts, all of my voices, all of my inner protectors that are coming out right now, and can I just befriend them?

Can I just like let them hang out for a bit instead of like pushing them away? Like to me that's like a folding into like I'm here and I noticed this actually, that's making me think about when I was facilitating a mushroom journey. What came up was so many of those flight or fights of like, oh my gosh, I'm going through a journey.

Is that bad? Is that wrong? Am I doing it right? Should I sit here? Like so many things and I'm like, whoa, like I gotta get it together. And I'm like, do I have to get it together? What does that actually mean? I'm like, I'm in non-duality right now. And so I was like processing a little bit. With my facilitator, but then I was like, no, I think I need to be with myself for a bit.

And he's like, okay, I, I got the, I got the space. Go do your thing. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, me thinking about it and obsessing about it and being annoyed about it is actually just exacerbating it. What if I just was like, okay, I feel too much. Okay, I'm doing it wrong. Okay, I'm doing it wrong. Hmm.

Ah, I'm gonna lean into that, doing it wrong. And then it was just like, that voice of doing it wrong turned into this part that like when I was, you know, younger and all the things, that story, and then it was like, I can see why I think I'm doing it wrong. Hmm. I have compassion for that part. It alchemized, it was gone.

I was like, oh, oh. So, and then it was like this whole journey I went on and I'm bringing that into this because. This sense of folding, folding into, I'm surrendering into all of my stuff right now, and also being a facilitator. What do I do with that? Can I just fold into like all the things that are just in front of me?

And it, what I learned through that, what the medicine helped me teach is that we just create more space for those parts. Can we create more space? And that act of surrender led me into the best facilitation I've ever had, quote, quote by the clients. So I'm like, oh. So leaning in instead of fearing it, shoving it down, acting like I got all my stuff together 24 7.

Hmm. That's, that's the resistance to not being all of you. And that brings me to another thing that's coming up is. I think surrender is an act of being all of you.

[00:40:25] Vision Battlesword: Hmm. Is that like another way of saying accepting? Yeah. All of your parts.

[00:40:30] Jessica Stepnowski: Yeah. I don't know if this plays into this, but it's coming up. A friend the other day, we were in like a sisterhood circle and she set her intention or something and she was like, I don't need to grow anymore.

I'm already fully at my evolution. I just need to like let go and surrender to all the stories to, to just embody that. And I was just like, whoa. That tickled my brain because all this time we're just like, again, like I'm reaching for the goal. I'm not there yet. I need to learn more. I need to grow more, I need to do it faster versus what if I'm already there?

I just need to like cut the bullshit out or make a space for them to all exist. And I just thought that was a really fascinating perspective of growth and yeah. And our inner inner ability to accept all of ourselves.

[00:41:21] Vision Battlesword: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think there's a trap, a self-improvement trap, which is this, it's weirdly paradoxical.

We play so many games with I'm not good enough.

[00:41:31] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:32] Vision Battlesword: And then that turns into another. I'm not good enough. I'm never good enough because I'm always in a state of improvement, but mm-hmm. The, the paradox to hold there I think is, yeah, we're always there. We're always there. We're always wherever we are now.

And that is fine. And it can be the case that there's some things that we'd like to do. It can be the case that there's some growing we want to do from this point. It could be the case that there's some letting go we want to do, it could be the case that there's some accepting or integrating of ourself that we want to do.

I think the trap is. Falling victim to a one right way. Mm-hmm. Yes. Concept of, oh, well if you're not always growing, then you're somehow not, you know, to use your phrase, not doing it right. Yeah. If you're not always evolving, you're not doing it right. If you're not always transforming, you're not doing it right.

Et cetera. And so, yeah, I think there's a state of self-acceptance, which is also like a state of surrender. Mm-hmm. To the fact that I am always gonna be a work in progress and I am also the best I've ever been. Yeah. Right. Or choice. I am wherever I am now. Yes. I'm, I'm actualized in my current state. Yeah.

In my, at my current stage, at my current age, at my current level, whatever. So yeah. I think there's, there's just so many beautiful paradoxes to all of this. And one of them is, I love how you reframed fold. That's really cool. I had never thought about that before. And I want to reflect that back to other people that I've.

Workshop, this fight, flight, freeze, unfold thing with the folding as a visual metaphor to a bow, to bowing in gratitude because that, that was something that was, was coming up for me earlier in our conversation that I wanted to touch on, is like in that state of surrender, in those states of surrender, when I've allowed myself to fold, to fully relax into what was happening, to accept the experience, I have found some of the most profound states of gratitude.

Yeah. In those moments. Yeah. That I've ever had, and it's been such a teacher for me, and again, how that gratitude itself is a medicine for. Suffering as well. Acceptance and gratitude and surrender. They release suffering. They're, they're somehow strongly connected.

[00:44:03] Jessica Stepnowski: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think when I, when you were speaking about that and you're like, maybe that is a survival strategy of the person, just like lay, or I envision someone laying on the floor and just like letting go and just allowing, and I was like, no, that's, that's thriving.

That is when you, because people and I, you know, I am, I will, for me, I mean I'm still attached and I'm working on detachment, but we are attached to our pain, we're attached to in the motions. Like, I am angry, so therefore I'm gonna find something angry in the world. I am frustrated, so I'm gonna go, my brain's gonna go find an example of that frustration.

When you're folding in or leaning in to the essence of surrender, you are not attached. You're like, I'm allowing my emotions to just be, I don't have an attachment to them. That to me is the bliss state. And that's really hard to be in until you go, maybe go through something and you're like, again, you know, the folks that are listening that have done medicine journeys, you know what I, you know what we're talking about in the sense of surrender, right?

Because you can't let go of what you're moving through or change the channel. You have to just fully like melt in of like frustration and anger or fear and all these different things. I mean, gosh, so many moments I've had and I'm like, okay, what is this teaching me? Can I just let this, can I let this sensation just be present in my body without making a meaning towards it?

And I think as humans we're so attached to making meanings, or it's like, well, again, we can't hold all of ourselves. We can't hold all of our capacity, or we haven't been taught yet. So I think folding into. The sense of surrender is just a beautiful description of like what it look, what it could look like by bowing into it and saying, okay, be my teacher.

Okay. I'm gonna just lay on the floor and just allow all the sensations, all the anger, and just not make a meaning of, and just be like, I'm experiencing anger right now versus I am angry. Yeah. That concept.

[00:45:54] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. I love that. I love the reframe of our emotions as an experience versus as an identity. Yeah.

That's really great. And I love this theme that we're kind of exploring right now about surrendering the concept of surrender as it applies to our emotions. And I think you're so right that we somehow, sometimes, many times fall in love with our suffering. Mm-hmm. For some reason we

[00:46:23] Jessica Stepnowski: benefit from it. It's an identity.

We're must be

[00:46:25] Vision Battlesword: getting something from it. Right. But also that concept of surrendering to our emotions is one of the most powerful. Transformational tools that we have in our repertoire, feelings felt fully finally finish.

[00:46:43] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm mm-hmm.

[00:46:44] Vision Battlesword: So when we relax and when we surrender and just allow our emotions to be present with us and to actually just experience them, they move, the energy can move,

[00:46:56] Jessica Stepnowski: they alchemize and I, and I feel for a lot of people, pain to purpose.

Pain to power. Like there's a reason why those are paired together. Because when you allow yourself to fully feel all of yourself or feel pain or the small parts, inner protectors that are coming up. They eventually will alchemize into your power, into this confidence and ability to accept all of yourself.

Right? And they shift and, and, and I'm still navigating what that actually looks like. I know I felt it, but I am, I'm learning how to name it in that way, but it's an alchem of like, I don't belong whatever the stories are into, okay, if I just accept that I don't belong, what does that instead of not making a meaning, just like I'm experiencing a, a abandonment right now.

And it's like when we cannot, like not attach to those, we're surrendering into those and then accepting it more of ourself and then it takes, it like removes the, the shame that it had over us and turns into power, like our own sovereignty of personal power.

[00:47:57] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. And it's the act of fighting and it's the act of resisting, kind of like what I was describing before with.

Medicine ceremony, or even just present moment awareness, just allowing the, the richness of the moment to actually unfold and to receive the richness, the aliveness, the beauty, the aliveness of the moment, right? Yeah. We're, we clamp down on that in the same way that we clamp down on our feelings, our emotions, and by relaxing by.

Choosing not to fight or not to resist them, but rather choosing to welcome them, to experience them, and to just actually have them. They change, to your point about alchemy, they move through, they dissipate, the experience itself evolves, or in some way we receive, we receive some benefit. You know, I really, I really believe that about our emotional states.

I believe that they're all here for us. I believe that they are forms of communication in forms of information, and they're all useful. You know, there's a lot of characterization of emotional states as positive or negative. Yeah.

[00:49:12] Jessica Stepnowski: I don't believe that any of 'em are negative. Yeah. I wanted, I

[00:49:13] Vision Battlesword: wanted to ask you what you thought about that.

[00:49:15] Jessica Stepnowski: Yeah, I, I really agree with what you're saying. Uh, it's, I mean, anyone right now that's listening, think about. What emotions come up as negative for you? Shame, anger, guilt. And imagine if you didn't have, like, I bet right now you're actually thinking about certain situations or experiences you've had that have created your shame, your guilt, your anger, that yet you have yet to deal with or you don't think it's important.

I mean, I know I have had many shameful things that have happened years ago that I'm like, eh, that doesn't matter. But then it gets brought up and then when I sit with it and it's like I brought in a whole new layer of myself that I didn't know was created from that experience, instead of shaming it, I actually brought it into acceptance, surrendering that that happened to me, and then it turned into part of the work that I'm doing, for example.

So when we're talking about this category of positive or negative emotions. I think that there is so much to learn about the quote negative ones, the shame, the guilt, the anger, the apathy. And I know that they're lower vibrational, but it's because people don't know how to actually understand them. And I think that as humans, we don't know we run from or hide from.

So when we can allow ourselves to feel into those sensations, they start to dissipate. And I, there's another layer of like the benefit of staying in those emotions, but my lived experience has been the more that I feel and give permission from my anger, there's a story that I need to hear or something to learn from it.

Shame is a big one for so many people. And when you stop shaming yourself for being, for feeling, shame is one of them. And you can lean into the actual situation that caused the shame and understand the story that created the idea of shame and go into that. Release that or heal that the shame disappears and you're like, oh, okay, this is why this was here.

So I don't believe that there's a negative emotion 'cause they all have something to teach us and. We just grew up societally through social norms and behaviors and all the things that, like, those were bad. And depending on how we grew up, like my mom was like, don't cry, get your shit together. Like, almost like get more angry than you would be sad.

Yeah.

Anger is, anger is okay, but being sad, you're weak. You can't be weak. And it really created this emotional unavailability for my feelings. So then when I grew up, I created this story that I ha I, I developed codependency and uh, people pleasing a lot because of the fear of abandonment, of like emotionally abandoning and then physically.

And I have to retrain myself that like, it's okay to be all of these things and let people see all these things 'cause that doesn't mean that they're gonna leave or what have you. So it's just such a fascinating conversation to have around negative and positive, when really, like, those aren't even your beliefs.

Those are just what people have created for you. And then you, I. Create a category for yourself, and then that just creates shame. And then you just don't accept yourself, so you can't surrender into who you actually are.

[00:52:25] Vision Battlesword: Mm-hmm. Well, the way you're talking about it, you're using some sort of terms and, and um, descriptions that suggests that, okay, we have some emotion that we may not prefer, that may feel unpleasant or feel like suffering, such as shame or sadness.

And we can do certain things with that until it goes away. And what I'm curious to know is like, what's the usefulness of shame just in and of itself? Why do we have it? You know, it's, so, the reason I ask that is, again, from an evolutionary perspective, but just generally as an observer of the world life reality, it doesn't strike me as likely.

That we as creatures have just been saddled with these burdensome, problematic experiences that are, that are triggered very frequently in our life. It, it seems to me that they're here for some reason. That's actually helpful to us. What do you think that could be for something like shame?

[00:53:26] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm. Shame is here to teach us unconditional love for ourself.

If I am fat shaming myself, body shaming, that means I don't love myself unless if I look a certain way, if I loved all of myself, what would that mean? Well, that means that I would have more capacity for being more confident, more charismatic, maybe finding the right partner, whatever. And so I think all of these emotions have an attachment.

It's like the. Dr. David Hawkins wrote a book called Transcending Levels of Consciousness. And every emotion has a certain consciousness frequency attached, and then there's a opposition of it. So I'm riffing on what I, my perspective of it, but to me, the opposing or the, the opposition of shame is really unconditional love.

Like, how do you love yourself? And like release this sense of like who you should have been or what you should have done in that instance. And anger, I think is the sense of reclaiming like your wholeness and like allowing the sense of anger to be a part of a desire. Like I almost feel like the opposition of anger is desire in a way.

And I think all of these emotions have, um, like guilt also is a self-acceptance. And also this wouldn't say self-righteousness, but like self belonging of like, I feel so strongly in what I have to say that I'm gonna let go the guilt of how that makes someone else feel, right? It's like, how can I belong to myself?

So. All to say, I believe all of these emotions have an imposing positive teaching moment that we need to evolve. We need to be able to love ourselves unconditionally. We need to be able to stand up for our truth and our beliefs, no matter if that affects somebody else and allow ourselves to be the full spectrum and not hold guilt over that or what have you.

And so I think all these emotions have, they play a significant role into consciously evolving. What's your thought?

[00:55:24] Vision Battlesword: My thoughts at this stage of my development I think are, emotions are a really important internal compass, internal calibration system to help us. Get our needs met to help us survive, thrive, experience, abundance, richness, you know, in our lives.

And I think there are also tools that we have for moving energy in specific kinds of ways. Like I think that anger is a tool that we can use to harness and gather energy and concentrate and focus it in very specific ways when we, when we need to or want to accomplish a certain goal. I think it could be, I think fear can be a way of also gathering energy to put things into motion.

I wouldn't say oppositional to anger, but a different way of moving energy that's not directly confronting an obstacle, but finding a way to put energy in motion in a way that accomplishes a goal or removes a problem. I think shame can be a way that we move energy in a relational way with the collective, with the, with the group to learn how to come into right relationship with each other in ways that help us mutually get our needs met.

Guilt, likewise, I think can be a teacher for us in helping us to receive reflection of how our actions, what impact our actions have on others. So yeah, that's the way I think of it. And so I think that, I can imagine a state of being, I don't embody that state of being in this moment, but I could imagine a state of being where these emotions, none of these emotions feels bad.

Mm. They just feel like different flavors. Yeah. And of you're

[00:57:28] Jessica Stepnowski: just like neutral to them in a way. Yeah. In a way. Or at least, or accepting.

[00:57:34] Vision Battlesword: None of them causes me to suffer. Mm. Let's say,

[00:57:39] Jessica Stepnowski: mm.

[00:57:39] Vision Battlesword: You know, I might feel anger, energy and it might feel a certain way, it might feel hot, it might feel, it's not neutral.

It's got characteristics to it. It might feel hard, it might feel strong. It might, there might be different aspects of that experience, but it's just a type of experience. And I'm in a sort of a relationship with it where it's like, I don't know the relationship that I have with a hammer or a screwdriver.

Or a saw, they're different. I kind of understand what they're, what each of them is used for, and I wouldn't use one particular one all the time, but I don't have a negative association with any of them. Yeah. Like I can sort of imagine having that and being in that state and I sort of imagine that this state that we are in now or that we're, we kind of generally collectively experience.

Is merely a dysfunctional expression of our emotions, our emotional states where like when I look at other creatures, non-human animals, for example, in nature, I imagine that they have internal experiences that are analogous to a lot of our emotions, but they don't suffer in them. Mm. And I sort of imagined that there was a time, a period in in our past where it was like that too.

We didn't suffer in them, even if we felt fear and we'd run away from an obstacle, it was a just a part of being alive. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. I love that. That's kind how I think about it.

[00:59:12] Jessica Stepnowski: Yeah. And it's like, can we come back to that sense of it's just a part of being alive? Like that actually is your aliveness.

Yeah. It's not just this ecstasy, blissful state. It's actually. Being able to feel all of your stuff,

right.

That's aliveness and that is really useful for us. And it's, it's teaching moments. It's just, oh, I'm allowing, I'm allowing myself to feel that. And I think that's that sense of surrender and self-acceptance that we're creating a theme for.

Because when you're able to feel all of yourself, you can surrender more into moments, right? Like circumstantial moments that are just like, my career is not working. What do I do? Or my finances or my relationship? And it's like,

hmm,

can I just not be attached to what I'm feeling, but also have reference for what I'm feeling?

I don't know. I think that that can bring us farther, quicker in a way. Maybe that is a part of evolution, is to be able to surrender into your emotions and be with them. Allow them to have the characteristics and the flavor, but not attach the shame to having the emotion. I'm experiencing shame right now.

I'm experiencing embarrassment, I'm experiencing anger. Hmm. Okay. Let me just be with it.

[01:00:28] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. And a process could look something like, of course we're intellectualizing this heavily because we're in the middle of a podcast, and, you know, in an emotional experience, it may be more challenging to, uh, adopt this as a reflex, but the process could be something along the lines of, I'm experiencing embarrassment right now, and that is true, that is true for me.

What does this embarrassment have to tell me? How is actually even a better question? How is this embarrassment here to help me? What can I do with this embarrassment? Or what might, what would this embarrassment like for me to do? Mm.

[01:01:04] Jessica Stepnowski: That Yeah. Yeah.

[01:01:05] Vision Battlesword: You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like literally having a relationship mm-hmm.

With the emotion and, but coming, coming at the emotion from a starting perspective of non-judgment, curiosity. Possibly even a bias to, there's probably likely something good here. There's probably something valid here. There's probably something useful,

[01:01:30] Jessica Stepnowski: there's a reason why it's here.

[01:01:32] Vision Battlesword: Right. Whereas I think probably a big part of the reason why we suffer so much with our emotions is because we don't surrender with them to them, into them.

And instead we fight them, we judge them as wrongs. Bad. It's wrong. Yeah. Wrong. Mm-hmm. I shouldn't be feeling, I shouldn't be angry. Right. Now that's, yeah.

[01:01:50] Jessica Stepnowski: Yes.

[01:01:51] Vision Battlesword: Not allowed. Right. And then, well, where do I put all this energy?

[01:01:55] Jessica Stepnowski: Yep.

[01:01:55] Vision Battlesword: It's just, you know, I just have to hold it or it just, it burns me up or,

[01:02:00] Jessica Stepnowski: and then that to me is the definition of surrendering.

Of like, Ugh, I'm gonna let go. I'm just gonna be with it. And I, and I feel that that is a sense of letting go. It's not playing victim to your circumstances. It's not failing. It's not. Um, shaming yourself, but it's the sense of can I allow all the sensations to just be, and also be with my disappointment, be with it, but can I learn to detach from the emotion or the, I'm looking for the word, not desire, but this like connection to it.

That's what we're, that's what we're not surrendering to the connection, to the thing, connection to the shame, connection to not, uh, or the launch flopping or whatever. It's, it's not that thing that actually happened. It's what we made of it that we're mad at, we're frustrated with, or we can't lean into.

It's like the relationship we have with anger, or again, if like a circumstance happened or a breakup happened, we're, we're not actually upset about the breakup. We're actually upset about what it means about us that we can't lean into what, whatever it was. Right. It's just like the, I'm like, that's why I keep doing this, the figures, because I'm thinking of like.

This is what we, this is who we are, this is what we want. And like it's the path. Getting there is what we're attached to.

[01:03:19] Vision Battlesword: I love this conversation. This is really interesting for me. And so there's a different piece I kind of wanna explore. If you're open to going on another little side adventure with me.

Let's go. Is it, is it possible to surrender too much?

[01:03:34] Jessica Stepnowski: Hmm. Like, lemme sit with that. That's a good question. I think it's the intentionality around it and then the, the paradox in like, my other part of my brain is like, aren't we surrendering all every day? Aren't we surrendering every day? Because not everything goes our way.

So is the act of surrender actually what helps us thrive versus if we surrender too much? I think it's the intentionality be around it of what surrender actually can look like for you Again. Really breaking this sense of like, work's not happening. I'm just gonna surrender and lay in my bed all day. I'm not gonna, like, that's not surrender.

Surrender is okay, what's here? What am what can I learn? Do I need to go to a different route? Instead of maybe trying to figure it out, I'm just being with all of it and then allowing the next step. It's being intentionally driven with the surrender piece. So if it's that, then yeah, we should be surrendering every day, all day.

[01:04:29] Vision Battlesword: What? Wait a second. Why is that? I give up, I'm just gonna lay in my bed and not even try to go to work anymore. Why is that not surrender? Mm. Is that a form of surrender or is that something different altogether? Is that just quitting? Mm. As compared to surrender?

[01:04:45] Jessica Stepnowski: Oh, that's, that's so interesting because there's a part of me that is like, it, I, I really think it comes down to the intentionality because it could be a part of the surrender process.

And I actually had, um, uh, I was working with a shadow worker quite a few years ago, and I remember something of like, we're so afraid to do the thing like. We're, we're feeling depressed. We're afraid that if we actually lean into the depression, we're gonna be in bed for the rest of our lives. But actually there is like a intensity that our body goes through, and then that intensity settles.

It's like that, um, 90 seconds if you allow your emotion to fully amplify, it only lasts for 90 seconds of that intensity. So same principle here, uh, if you lean into it, so it's like work's not working, and you're like, I just need to be in it, there's gonna be a time where your body's like, okay, we're done, but we don't give ourselves that opportunity because we're resisting the actual desire.

So, and I'm like, okay, how does that come back into your question? Because, do you

[01:05:41] Vision Battlesword: get the spirit of my question? I mean, it is, it is about that case study that, that example of like, okay. I'm just gonna surrender all the time. Surrender all day, every day I surrender, do this, I surrender, do that. Like is there, is there a form of bypassing, I guess in that?

Yeah, that totally, I, that's what, and that's

[01:05:58] Jessica Stepnowski: what I think I was sharing without saying the word bypassing. Yeah. Of like the intentionality behind it. Yeah. Yeah. It could totally be a sense of bypassing. Then you're, you're too much in your feminine and you don't have the, the, the masculine to actually like, take action.

And that to me is like a follower versus a leader where you're just, I'm just gonna be with what's happening. I'm just gonna go to work. I'm just gonna take this job. I'm just gonna say yes to this person. I'm just gonna like fall into these experiences or whatever. And then you're not really in control of your life.

You're surrendering. You're really just, you're not an active participant. And to actually have the positivity or the actual definition, I think you and I have talked about like bowing into it, folding into the sense of surrender. You're being an active participant. Mm-hmm.

And it

doesn't necessarily look like doing something, but.

Action being happened, whether it's it's alchemy in some form.

[01:06:45] Vision Battlesword: Hmm. Okay. Surrender is an act.

[01:06:48] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm, yeah.

[01:06:50] Vision Battlesword: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, because it's funny that you said that 'cause I was just about to ask you based on what you were saying. So is action the opposite of surrender? Are those, are they like binaries, but No, there's there surrender can be very active or,

[01:07:04] Jessica Stepnowski: yeah.

Yeah. And I, I'm coming back to my lived experience. So for example, I was living in Dallas before moving to Austin. And when I was looking at everything and I'm like, I could continue to try to build my business here. I could try to continue finding my friend groups, or I can surrender into like, this isn't for me and I'm gonna actively figure out what that is.

I'm gonna wait for the sign. And then. Someone Soha was like, Hey, I live in Austin. Oh, I actually am close to Austin. Okay, maybe I should go visit Austin. Lean into that. Surrendering into like, this might not be for me, but I want to explore it. There's a, there's a, there's a thread here. Got back and I was like, Austin's for me.

And that surrender piece, if I was so grappling to this idea that I needed to stay in Dallas for whatever reason, I need to figure it out. Things were kind of working, maybe I should continue focusing that versus leaning into the resistance that was being, that was placed there, that like, there might be something better for me and I wanna lean into what that looks like.

And then I moved my life in March of 2025 to Austin. And then also when I got here, for example, I was working with a coach and then we were working on a program that, again, I was kind of sharing. I was like, I don't feel like I'm a coach anymore. What does that mean? I gotta lean into that. And it was a sense of internal exploration and doing things every day that made me fulfill some sort of exploration of that sense of desire, but not being attached to what it was.

And then it was all of a sudden, again, my friend was like, I'm holding this Akashic container. And I was like, I'm gonna, okay, that's a yes for me. And I just surrendered into that. I never in a million years thought I would be doing Akashic ratings, and here I am. So, to me, surrender is an action of devotion to, I'm gonna figure it out.

I don't know what it looks like. I'm gonna let go of the pathways, but I'm gonna f I'm gonna figure it out. It might be today, it might be in a year. Whoa, can I let go of that timeline? That helped me a lot. Just be present. Letting go of like, in three months I'm gonna have it figured out. No, it actually might be six months girl, it might be three years.

How do you feel about that? And then like being with those discomfort sensations helped me lean into like, I'm actually where I'm supposed to be right here, right now. So it's, to me, it's a skill and it's just a practice.

[01:09:22] Vision Battlesword: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's a perfect lead into another place I wanted to get to. Which it is also, weirdly, we're doing it in the moment, or I am doing it in the moment.

I surrendered to, at some point we're gonna get around to this topic and we did. And the topic, ironically enough, is exactly that. To surrender to the process while not knowing the The details. Yeah. Or allowing, allowing it to be okay that I've set an intention. I do have a goal, I do have a destination in mind.

And. I'm not gonna try to control every single aspect of what that actually even looks like or how precisely we get there. And I think that comes back around to me to a pin that I dropped way early in the conversation that I wanted to come to, which is the relationship of desire.

[01:10:14] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm.

[01:10:15] Vision Battlesword: To surrender. Mm and to like open that up.

I just want to share a little bit about what this surrendering to the process and surrendering some of the details, how deeply I believe in that because of everything I've experienced and seen through my practice of manifestation, and especially these manifestation ceremonies that I've led over these past four years or so.

And how that's such an important part of it, where what we do is crystallize an intent. We get in touch with our desire. We allow that desire to paint a picture, which is extremely detailed, which has a lot of specifics associated to it. But what's super important is not to attach That picture is sort of like an energetic frequency, or it is something that we can use our imagination to look forward to.

That helps to get us into that activated motion. But then we allow for the surprise of how is exactly these things gonna show up. And there's so there's something, again, it's not exactly a paradox, but it's a balance that we keep talking about and touching on and coming back to over and over again. It's this surrender, but while being active, it's, it's, yes, my dream of such and such relationship.

Will manifest. I believe in it. I've cast a vision for it. I am in motion toward it. I'm taking steps and allowing things to move in a direction, and I don't know when it's gonna happen. I don't know exactly who it's gonna be that shows up. I don't know the specifics I'm intentionally allowing to surprise me.

I'm intentionally allow, I'm intentionally creating space. I'm surrendering my ability to entirely determine my reality. So it's like a, there's, it's like a relationship between myself and the rest of the universe. A, a relationship between myself and reality, where that act of surrender is actually a necessary component of the reciprocity between my intentions and.

What it is that I would actually like to receive. And I guess the whole point of, I feel like I went on a little bit long-winded on that, but the whole point of that is in that act of surrendering to the details, the magic, and many times actually the comedy is in what those details actually turn out to be in whatever timeframe and in whatever situation that is that they show up.

When you then recognize that that is actually, that is the intention that I set this is, this is the reality that I created for myself. And I had no idea it was gonna look like this, but here it is. I got what I asked for. So that being said, what, what do you think about desire and surrender? I think there's another sense in which people might look at those as opposites or somehow mm-hmm.

In conflict or competition with each other. But what do you think?

[01:13:33] Jessica Stepnowski: So I'm curious what your thought is. I heard this and it stuck with me and it feels, there feels a discernment, um, in my body. And I'm curious for you, and then I'll get into that. 'cause I think it plays into it. Have you heard of there's a difference between believing and just knowing?

[01:13:50] Vision Battlesword: I haven't heard this.

[01:13:50] Jessica Stepnowski: Okay. Does that feel different in your body? I believe it versus I know.

[01:13:55] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, totally. N totally feels different.

[01:13:58] Jessica Stepnowski: So to me, a desire in the act of surrender has to have that just knowing, I know I'm gonna be a millionaire. I know that I'm gonna be leading ayahuasca retreats, whatever.

It's just a knowing. So then I surrender to how I'm gonna get there, versus I have to believe, I have to remind myself that this is gonna happen. There's effort and then there's suffering, and then you can't surrender into. Getting to the desire because you're still believing it versus knowing it. I think that's where our work really begins.

Or you gotta really get clear on what that desire actually is, if it's actually a desire or an egoic drive. So I think in the sense of surrender, yeah, you have to be able to surrender into how you're gonna get there. Because like you said, then you just are like, oh my God, I'm here. Like thinking about moving to Austin, all the things I've created, just being here for seven months.

And I'm like, I'm almost like how? But I'm also like, wait, I know how I did this. I set the intention, I was very clear on what I wanted and I went out and I surrendered and how it was gonna happen, but I had the very specific intention, this is what I wanted. And I was like just knowing it was gonna happen versus believing things.

And I just felt different about things that I've believed in. And then the sense of believing. Creates this resistance to getting there versus a knowing is I'm just so accepting how I'm gonna get there, who I'm gonna be when I'm there. It's just inevitable. And I don't care when it ha. It's not that you don't care, it's that you're not attached because it's just a knowing.

And it could be three months, it could be six months, it could be three years. And I'm curious within myself in a way of how I've created that inner knowing versus a belief. And I think the beliefs are more affecting our, how we grew up ancestral. Generational patterns that whether it's conscious or unconscious, it could be energetic blocks versus a knowing is like just a deep truth that is just like it's always been there and you just discovered it.

Yeah. I dunno if that answers your question, but that's kind of my relationship with desire and surrender.

[01:16:15] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Well, I don't know if it answers my question either, but it's definitely something very interesting that I like and I agree with that. Yeah, there's something about knowing that transcends belief.

Mm

[01:16:29] Jessica Stepnowski: mm-hmm.

[01:16:30] Vision Battlesword: And also I think belief can be a type of knowing.

[01:16:35] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm-hmm. I see that.

[01:16:36] Vision Battlesword: And also there can be a type of belief that feels more like. Trying to know versus actually knowing.

[01:16:44] Jessica Stepnowski: Yeah. And they can change if that makes sense. Change. And they can, they can shift into the knowing. It's just, it's, I almost feel like it's just an opportunity listening to create, to ask yourself.

Believing, knowing, like, I know my name is Jessica. I know. I don't believe it. I know it, versus something else. Right. So I think it's finding that opportunity within yourself and then this whole conversation we've been having around surrender and asking yourself, are you surrendering into the knowing or are you fighting yourself into the believing?

[01:17:18] Vision Battlesword: I like that. That's a cool frame.

[01:17:20] Jessica Stepnowski: Hmm.

[01:17:21] Vision Battlesword: There's another word that's coming up for me while we're talking about this whole knowing versus believing thing, though it occurred to me earlier too, and I'm kind of surprised neither one of us has brought it up yet, which is trust.

[01:17:33] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm. Oh wow. What's the, we have not talked about that at all.

What's the, I'm very surprised.

[01:17:37] Vision Battlesword: Seems, seems kind of relevant. What's very relevant? What's the relationship of trust? To surrender?

[01:17:42] Jessica Stepnowski: I think comes back to the knowing. I think it's trusting that whatever you're moving through right now, whether it's internally or externally, trusting that you're gonna get on the other side of it.

Trusting that your path is for you, trusting that your destiny is happening, trusting that, to me, trust is almost the same word as just knowing, and it's hard to just know that you are capable. It's hard to just know that you are meant to have this sort of relationship. You believe. I think I can have it.

I believe that I can, but a knowing is like, I just know. Just know it. I feel that there is, I know that there is processes to get from believing to knowing.

[01:18:22] Vision Battlesword: I trust that there's processes. I

[01:18:23] Jessica Stepnowski: trust that there's processes. Yeah. I think it's funny enough, I think more surrendering will be come back into your knowing, oh, surrender more into what you're experiencing and then you're gonna find your knowing.

Hmm. That's so abstract in a way.

[01:18:40] Vision Battlesword: I think that's true. I think what you just said makes sense to me. Okay. And it was occurring to me that trust is kind of like a belief that creates knowing. Yeah.

[01:18:54] Jessica Stepnowski: Whoa. Yeah.

[01:18:54] Vision Battlesword: Do you know what I mean by that? Mm-hmm. Because it's like we can say, I believe it's gonna rain tomorrow, which sort of says, I have a certain confidence level.

Yeah. Percentage. Yeah. I have a certain level of confidence that it's gonna rain tomorrow versus I know it's gonna rain tomorrow. I don't know how you know that, but Okay. Like yeah, you have, if you have that certainty know Yeah. Like knowing conveys as some kind of like a hundred percent certainty.

[01:19:22] Jessica Stepnowski: Yeah.

[01:19:24] Vision Battlesword: And then trusting is sort of like where, whereas beliefs feel more like chosen.

[01:19:31] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:32] Vision Battlesword: Trusting is sort of like chosen knowledge. Trusting is sort of like, I have a hundred percent confidence because I choose to. That's kind of like, that seems to me that that's what trust is, is about. It's, I've done deep exploration is just on the concept of trust before.

So for me, this is unpacking, this is, this is going back through some familiar territory, but it's interesting to me to think of how trust bridges the gap between belief and knowledge in that way. I've never thought of it that way before.

[01:20:03] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm. I can see that. I, I, I can see that it's like I'm trusting to choose that this is, uh, my truth.

I'm. And I think we're almost like working on this invisible system within ourselves. Like we, we think we know we, we think we know ourselves until we know ourselves in a way, and trusting that I'm gonna figure this out, and also trusting that I'm gonna be okay no matter what. And it's like trust is, I think, used in so many different variations.

And then when it comes to like trust, surrender, desire, belief, or believing, you need to have, when you're in surrender, you need to trust that this is for you. You need to also trust that you're gonna get on the other side. And you need to believe that whatever's happening right now is for your grace and highest good.

And then you need to have this. And then that's gonna build the inner knowing of like, this is why I went through this, or this is exactly like I'm thinking. Also, again, like I relate to a lot of things through my lived experiences and. A lot of the things that I've had to surrender to have built the belief or have, I'm sorry, have built the knowing, but I had to believe at the time that I could move through it and trust that and surrender at the same time that like the timeline was gone.

That it was like just a knowing like I, I, I'm now knowing myself. It's, it's an interesting construct to talk about because I think it's so multifaceted and there's so many different waves and layers of surrender trust and then belief and then the inner knowing that we just kind of brought into the space.

[01:21:42] Vision Battlesword: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But one of the reasons I brought it up is because, is trust necessary in order to experience surrender fully?

[01:21:52] Jessica Stepnowski: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. You have to, 'cause then you're gonna resist. Trusting is like folding in. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Folding in, bowing into it is the trust of like, I, I trust. I'm accepting, like I think trust and acceptance go hand in hand in that way.

[01:22:10] Vision Battlesword: How do you find the trust that you need to surrender? Oh gosh. When you need to.

[01:22:18] Jessica Stepnowski: Uh hmm. What's coming up for me is seeing the light in the tunnel, even though it's not there, and you're almost like, not faking till you make it, but holding onto this sense of hope. Faith, and I think, I don't know if it's a survival mechanism in a way, but you start to believe in yourself in a new way.

And I think you also have this, like your drive and your tenacity kind of kicks in of like, we're gonna figure this out. Like, we might not figure it out today, but like we're, no, this is not giving up. It's just, it's just a, it's a deviation, it's a detour. Like, we are not giving up, so we're gonna lean into this and we're just gonna be with it because there's no, we've tried to fight it, we've tried to go in different directions and now we just need to like allow God to take the wheel.

And I think that's almost where the higher power comes in of, uh, no, I'm gonna like God, source, spirit, what have you. You put this into my life for a reason. You made me feel, or you, you're causing me to feel this way. You're bringing this circumstance. I'm gonna like, I'm gonna trust you. It's almost like you have to put your trust into something else, and then it kind of comes back into yourself when really I'm being.

We are God. So, but there's something about having the guidance and having this sense of faith and hope that helps us bring us to the other side and like kind of bring us back into our own self of trust. And then I think the other part that is coming up is, um, like evidence of past experiences. Bringing that into the, like, I've done this before.

I've done it in a different way. I can do it again. I got this. I can do it.

[01:23:53] Vision Battlesword: I think you nailed it when you said God.

[01:23:55] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm.

[01:23:57] Vision Battlesword: I, I I mean, I think that's the answer.

[01:23:59] Jessica Stepnowski: Yeah.

[01:24:00] Vision Battlesword: You know the question being how do you find the trust that you need in order to surrender when you must or when you need to? And I'm, my past experience may fail me.

I may trust, I may find trust in that my past experience may fail me. I may trust in my facilitator or that trust may fail me. I may trust in this environment, this container. I may even trust in this medicine or that may fail me. I may lose trust for everything and anything, but I can always find trust in God when I need to surrender.

[01:24:32] Jessica Stepnowski: And then it's like the same opposition of that, or duality in a way is like, I'm trusting that like I, it can fail. And also I'm trusting, like that's also a part of it and it's like this interesting piece of um, surrender of just like going through everything. I trust that this is gonna I trust, but I also know that this can fail me and I'm gonna trust that in a way it's like not a negative, you kind of just don't see it as a negative anymore to see as what it is, like aliveness as what it is.

It's gonna work out or it's still gonna work out,

you know?

[01:25:07] Vision Battlesword: Mm-hmm. But that's a knowing.

[01:25:09] Jessica Stepnowski: Ah, yeah. Yeah. It's a knowing.

[01:25:12] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Interesting,

[01:25:13] Jessica Stepnowski: huh?

[01:25:14] Vision Battlesword: Is there anything about surrender that. Is really interesting to you, or that we haven't explored yet?

[01:25:21] Jessica Stepnowski: Hmm. I think that at the end of the day, it's about surrendering to the attachment, created to the thing, and allowing yourself to have a full spectrum of emotions to move through you, to alchemize, to have their time with you, that there's teachers there, and that is aliveness.

That's actually what you're ta chasing. You're chasing aliveness. That's allowing yourself to feel a full spectrum of emotion and surrender is an act of, act of feeling, and then releasing. Releasing the attachment, feeling it fully, letting it go, moving on to something else, being with the complexities of life, and then finding your inner knowing.

Finding that, knowing that no matter where you are, no matter what's happening, you're gonna get the thing that you want. You have to surrender into how it's supposed to happen. It's just like that constant ebb and flow of trust, surrender, release, trust, surrender, release, open surrender, release. Let go.

[01:26:24] Vision Battlesword: Lather, rinse, repeat.

[01:26:25] Jessica Stepnowski: Yes. Yeah. That

[01:26:28] Vision Battlesword: for me, what's opened up in this conversation is a portal. I now see surrender as a portal. I see it as a kind of magic, that there's a kind of magic in the state of total relaxation. That surrender requires that the state of surrender, the act of surrender, the choice, whichever way we want to think of it, is synonymous with an acceptance of the full experience of the moment and everything that it contains, as well as a releasing of all of our tension or clenching.

Are holding of that, which is not allowing energy to move

[01:27:17] Jessica Stepnowski: freely. Mm. Mm-hmm. Which is actually the thing that's causing the resistance and suffering to getting to where you wanna go.

[01:27:23] Vision Battlesword: Right. Oof. And so, yeah. Now like reflecting back on my fairly rare moments of true complete surrender in my life and the magic alchemy that happened for me in those moments, that's the relationship that I'm having with surrender now, is that it's, it's really about allowing and achieving that state of dissolving the tension that prevents that, which wants to be that which wants to happen.

That witch, I love

[01:27:56] Jessica Stepnowski: that. Yeah. That witch wants to be that. Which is what is present.

[01:28:00] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. And there's a really important connection to me with death, the relationship to death. And how many connection points it seems that we have in our transformational experiences that are connected to that, that state of relaxing into the awareness, the reality of our own death, and sometimes we call it an ego death, which means our identity has completely dissolved.

Or it may be an actual, literal fear of extinction in this physical life form from a near death experience, or a very powerful ceremony, or even different types of meditation that can take us to that place where we actually think we're gonna die, or we think we're experiencing death. And having those moments of surrender into that and coming out the other side.

There's a magic alchemy in that too that allows us to be ever more fully alive. To have ever more of an actual relationship with the experience of the reality of this moment, what's actually happening now as opposed to living in our virtual reality of fear of what we think is on the other side of that moment.

[01:29:23] Jessica Stepnowski: Mm. Yeah. Said it so well. Mm, mm-hmm.

[01:29:30] Vision Battlesword: This was a really rich conversation for me. I, I got a lot from this. I hope you enjoyed it as well.

[01:29:36] Jessica Stepnowski: I so enjoyed it. I haven't explored surrender at this depth and magnitude, so it, it, it, it was, um, a reminder for me of how humbling surrender really is and how magically alchemical it is, and it's just a part of the process.

And I love what you said of just allowing to flow what's present and just like that's actually. Tension. That's actually the resistance. You think it's the fear, but it's the actual relationship you have with the fear that's mm-hmm. That needs to dissolve or evolve.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm taking away, like allowing whatever's present to just surrender into it and just not shaming it, not hiding it, just being with it and allowing more spaciousness.

I, I, I, we as humans have so much capacity to hold all of ourselves. We just haven't explored it yet, or we haven't been shown how, and I think surrender's a really great portal to realize like, wow, we can hold a lot, we can do a lot. And then on the other side of it, we can be more of ourselves because we've learned to surrender into who we're

[01:30:41] Vision Battlesword: Beautiful. Yeah. Great. Capstone summary. Thank you so much for this conversation. Before we close, I just want to, you know, ask you and invite you to just tell me and anyone who's listening a little bit about. The work that you do and how anyone could find you if they wanted to connect and learn more. Yeah. Or get in touch with you.

[01:31:02] Jessica Stepnowski: So mostly on social media at Jessica Marie, step on Instagram and also TikTok. Tiktoks been really fun. I've been letting out my, I've been surrendering to my voice. There've, so social media's been my big main hub of community. A lot of the work that I do is energy work and, um, working a lot with the Akashic records.

So essentially just like being able to connect with your soul's timeline, past, present, future. And that's also been transmuting into body work on the table. So I've been calling them Akashic Body clearing sessions, which has been really cool. And then on top of that. I am also doing medicine ceremonies, so in Austin, and maybe they will expand in different parts of the world, but utilizing psilocybin as my main teacher, as our main guide.

And just really, again, my whole premise through all the work that I do is helping you feel okay with the sense of who you truly are and allowing yourself to go into the depths. Because we didn't touch on this, this wasn't a part of the conversation per se, but the shadows is really where our power lives, I believe.

And the more that we can surrender into who we really are and go into the depths and strip away, let go of the pieces, the layers, the identity of our identities of ourselves, we can then come home to who we truly get to be. And it's just becomes more of a knowing and we get to actualize that. So I love helping people actualize that through medicine, through, um, embodiment experiences, through the Akashic records, all the things.

[01:32:32] Vision Battlesword: Amazing. Awesome. That sounds like a, an abundant portfolio of magical gifts that you have to offer. So I'll be happy to share whatever links and connections that you'd like in the show notes for this episode. And just thanks again, really so much for spending this time with me. It was really, really good conversation.

I hope you'd like to do it again sometime.

[01:32:55] Jessica Stepnowski: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

[01:32:58] Vision Battlesword: Thanks for joining me for Intentional Evolution. If you'd like to support the show, there's a couple of ways that you can do that. One is to connect with me directly. I'd love to start a conversation with you. If you're interested in any of my offers or if you'd like to be a guest on this podcast visit ievolve.life LIFE and drop me a note or book a call with me to connect. Another great way to get involved is to attend one of our live events, visit intentionalevolution.live LIVE to see details about our upcoming and past events, register to attend an event and gain access to our ever-growing archive of materials and resources.

Also, don't forget to check the links in the episode or the show notes for ways to connect with and support our guests and contributors. Thanks again, and I'll see. You in the Singularity.