In this rich, philosophical episode of the Intentional Evolution Podcast, Vision Battlesword and guest Ivan Chocron dive into the essence of humanity, exploring consciousness, transformation, and our place in the universe. The conversation unfolds from an inquiry into “Who are you?”—which sets the stage for exploring the fluid nature of identity and human experience. They reflect on personal growth, vulnerability, and emotional healing, highlighting the evolving ability of humans to approach discomfort and hopelessness with compassion, a shift from previous generations rooted more in survival.

A key part of the dialogue focuses on Ivan Chocron’s transformative Iboga experience, which led to an “exit from the simulation.” Rather than hopelessness, he found awe and love for the intricacy of life—a theme echoed throughout their reflections on intentional evolution, spiritual practice, and the interconnectedness of all beings. The duo discuss how psychedelics reveal buried parts of self, and draw analogies between plant consciousness (especially mushrooms and ayahuasca) and emergent machine consciousness, likening humanity’s evolutionary leaps with technology to ancient coevolution with fungi.

They zoom out to contemplate the purpose of humanity, debating whether meaning is uniquely human or simply a consequence of advanced awareness, and touch on collective suffering—especially loneliness—while embracing a sense of cosmic belonging among myriad forms of consciousness. With playful detours into fractals, the simulation theory, and humanity’s possible role as a unique “bridging species,” this episode ultimately encourages embracing our uniqueness without superior ego, fostering intentional growth, and finding hope by zooming out to the bigger fractal of existence.

Show Notes

Chapters

• 00:00— Opener & Welcoming Ivan; Intentional Deep-Dive Conversations
• 00:41— Who Are You, Ivan? Non-Biographical Identity & Pattern Interrupts
• 02:42— Humanity as Evolving Experience: Growth, Forgetting, Remembering
• 03:55— Entering Vulnerability: Hopelessness, Healing, and States of Being
• 05:40— Generational Change: Compassion for Parts & Evolution of Self-Awareness
• 10:23— Intentional Evolution: Humanity, Technology, Spirituality, and Psychedelics
• 13:15— Iboga, the Simulation, and Cosmic Awe: Leaving & Loving the Matrix
• 17:22— Healing and the Stainless Steel Core: Plants vs. Defense Mechanisms
• 25:25— Trauma, Shame, and Uncovering the Unconscious; Realms of Iboga
• 30:52— Discovery & Healing: Naming the Unspeakable Parts
• 33:02— Comparing Experiences: Individuality in Medicine Work
• 34:47— Puzzle Pieces & Fractals: Humanity's Uniqueness Without Superiority
• 40:49— Infinity and the Mandelbrot Set: Fractalic Cosmos & Infinite Expansion
• 44:47— The Purpose Problem: Are We Here For Anything?
• 47:21— Mushroom Intelligence: Mycelium as Ancient Brain & Language Catalyst
• 52:04— Special vs Unique: Species, Ego, and the Puzzle of Words
• 56:34— Does Humanity Have a Unique Role or Is Life "Free Play"?
• 58:47— Purpose, Experimentation, and Ready-Made Meaning
• 1:04:20— Machine Consciousness: Simulation, AI, Fractals & Human Evolution
• 1:07:52— Singularity, Supercomputers, and Collective Consciousness
• 1:13:10— Mushrooms: Grandparent Spirits & Evolutionary Technology
• 1:26:13— Spirits & Chemistry: Plant Personalities, Addresses, and Human Parallels
• 1:38:38— Loneliness, Family, and the Miracle of Not Being Alone
• 1:44:12— Zooming Out: Hopefulness, Cosmic Perspective, and Advising Ourselves
• 1:44:19— Who Am I? Ivan Answers the Opener, Vision Answers the Finale
• 1:45:25— Close: Gratitude, Future Episodes, and Community

[00:00:00] Vision Battlesword: Hello, welcome to the Intentional Evolution Podcast. I am your host, Vision Battlesword, integral consultant and founder of iEvolve Life, a personal and professional development practice based on the philosophy of intentional evolution. This podcast is an ongoing conversation to explore that philosophy as well as to serve as a resource, a showcase, and a catalyst for ongoing growth toward the human singularity.

That is to say. Mass awakening of new consciousness, super intelligence and radical creative flourishing. Each episode, I'll feature a world class transformational facilitator, co-creator or friend to reveal cutting edge psychospiritual technology, unpack our deepest wisdom and evolve our awareness. This series is based on value for value, so whatever value you receive from these transmissions, please return some value back in the form of a donation, directly supporting our contributors or offering your own time and talent as a producer.

Thanks for joining me in this journey, and now here's our episode.

I am so excited. Me too. I have been waiting for this for a long time. Like we've been talking on the phone over these past couple of years or so. And how we've stayed in communication. And I mentioned to you, I think as of a couple of years ago that I started recording these conversations from my previous show, sacred Conversations.

And I've always wanted to do one of these deep dives with you because whenever we talk, we have these just, you know, amazing, interesting, philosophical conversations. And as usual, we dropped in for like 30 seconds a few moments ago and immediately started another one again. And so this just feels so, um, such perfect timing and so in alignment to finally get to sit with you, Yvonne, and just see where, see where our minds go when we just explore a huge interesting idea through the lens of our experience.

So thank you so much for being here and taking the time to do this with me.

[00:02:06] Ivan Chocron: Well, I feel very happy to be here and also honored that this means a lot to you, and I'm excited to see where our conversation takes us. Just like you said, 30 seconds. Talking and we're like, okay, let's shut up and turn on the mics.

'cause things are already happening. So

[00:02:24] Vision Battlesword: please say this into my microphone. This is too good. We don't wanna lose this. Alright, well welcome back to Austin. I'm so glad you took the time to drop by while you, you know, while you happen to be here in town. It's just such a pleasure and a privilege to get to spend time with you.

And I always start these conversations with the same question, which is fun and interesting to me. So I hope you appreciate it as well. And that question is, who are you? Yvonne Charan.

[00:02:54] Ivan Chocron: I do appreciate that question mostly because I don't think that I have been asked that before m maybe I did ask that to myself a few times, but I definitely don't have a already pre-made answer.

That's exactly the point of why I asked it that way. Yeah, I, I assumed. Well, there's so many ways in which I wanna take that answer.

[00:03:21] Vision Battlesword: Exactly. Wow. Do you enjoy, do you get it? Like it's such a pattern interrupt, right? Because it like interrupts our scripted biography of like, oh, this is my job, or this is where I'm from, or whatever.

It's like, no, I actually wanna know like who you are.

[00:03:37] Ivan Chocron: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

None of those identities would describe who I am. How long can you wait? We got two hours. Go nuts. We don't get stuck in that question for two hours. I think it's a great question for anybody to ask themselves often, because the experience of who we are changes a lot as we grow, as we travel through, through this incredible journey of life.

And so I had answers for that question that came up to me in the past, and none of them feel alive in this moment. And our way of saying that is like all of them feel alive in this moment, but none of them are descriptive enough. I have an idea. I think the answer will come as we keep talking.

[00:04:35] Vision Battlesword: Good.

[00:04:36] Ivan Chocron: So at some point during the conversation, I'll be like, I think that's a good answer for your first question.

[00:04:42] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, that's exactly kind of where my mind was going when I said maybe that is the question for the next two hours. Because of course you and I know, and whoever's listening to this does not yet know what the topic is that we're gonna jump into and explore. But it feels like. If there's no distinction, it's, it's all interwoven.

It's all one thing exciting. Can't wait to find out who I am. Yeah, and I just kinda wanna refresh too, like how we got here. Meaning we were just having this short but incredibly deep conversation moments ago where what we were kind of talking about, we were just dropping in together. And asking each other how our day has been.

And then in the answering of that question, so much was revealed, you know, where I talked about how some things had been coming up for me in the past few days, but you asked me, well, how have you been moving through them? And I answered talking about how I'd sort of just welcomed some old stories and patterns and parts that were coming up for me and allowed them to just be present and witnessed and allow them to speak to me, but hold them with compassion.

And that I just chose to open my heart to everyone in my life right now, especially the most important people to me. Like, like you and like my sweetheart Lacey and my partners, my business partners that I was meeting with today. And in just opening my heart and also like opening my heart to spirit that a lot of these, let's call them crunchy sensations or emotions, kind of were just sort of moving through my system.

And then you shared back to me. Just how hopeful that reflection is to you. And note noticing that I and others, like many of us, are starting to have access to these kind of tools more and more often and frequently, and just sort of being grateful for this time that we live in where it seems like more and more of us are accessing new states of awareness or consciousness that weren't maybe as available to as many people previously.

And that's kind of how we got to the topic that we're on now.

[00:06:48] Ivan Chocron: Mm-hmm. Yeah, to me felt like one of the key moments that that led me to to say that was when you said that all of these parts that are unpleasant or in fear or in lack or in whatever discomfort, I asked you how you are dealing with them. And you said welcoming them, having compassion for them, having.

Listening to them attuning to what they needed or some version of that. Yeah. And then what I felt in that moment was like this rush of hope, because in the past, in just one generation ago, we humans didn't do that with their parts. Humans didn't welcome the discomfort and listened to them as if it would be like, you know, their own child and, and love them and then listen to them and paid attention to them.

And now you said that. And I am happy that it is not the first time I hear people do that. That's that's what brought hope. As I wait. Sometimes when I feel hopeless about humanity, I have to remember or it's good for me. It's not that I have to, but it's good for me to have conversations like that where I remember, or I'm reminded of.

The fact that a generation ago almost nobody could have done that, like that was not available to humanity as much. That was not the way of talking. That's not what mattered. What mattered were other things that were more related to survival. And, and now just one generation after, here we are with plenty of people welcoming their parts and having compassion for them themselves and the parts that are uncomfortable.

And so in my struggle with hopelessness that I have often these moments where I zoom out, I'm like, look what happened in just one generation. That's medicine to me. It's, it's so hidden to be like reminded of the bigger picture. So you telling me how you dealt with your parts have already brought a lot of soothing to my system. Um, so thanks.

[00:08:57] Vision Battlesword: Thank you. Yeah. And well, I wonder. If you're open in the course of this conversation to being a little bit vulnerable with each other, like you brought up, you used the word hopelessness a couple of times and I know that that is a deep important experience that you've had and so, you know, if you're open to exploring that a little bit, you know with me now, even while we're recording, I just want to get your consent, you know, before we go down, any paths that you may not wanna explore today, you have it.

Okay, great. Well, I think now is probably an appropriate time to transition because I think what we've been talking about right now, you know, my experience of some crunchy feelings and patterns and, you know, old programs, your experience of getting to play with. The hopelessness experience.

[00:09:54] Ivan Chocron: It feels like a state.

[00:09:55] Vision Battlesword: A state.

[00:09:56] Ivan Chocron: It just like, yeah. It's like I become the hopeless, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's not just like I feel hopeless, but you know, it's okay. It's like Right, and it's just like, just takes over. I learned how to deal with it and how to welcome it and all of the things we're talking about, but it does feel like it goes from toe to head.

[00:10:16] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Yeah. The state of hopelessness, but all of these things I think are descriptions of human experience, and so that's why I wanted to transition now kind of into opening up this giant box of toys, of whatever it is that we find in there, which is humanity. Ultimately, like what does that even mean to be human?

How do we understand that? How do we define that as compared to, I guess, this new world that we inhabit now with technology and also with spirituality, with psychedelics, with all sorts of interesting ideas that people have about the universe and what kind of beings and creatures and consciousnesses that we share this dimension of reality with.

What does it mean to be uniquely human and what is humanity? Especially on this theme of this show, which is of course, intentional evolution of humanity. How we can become self-directed in the way that we would like to evolve our consciousness using all these kind of tools and techniques of transformation that we're talking about.

Not a big deal, just little topic, just talking about the essence of our existence, right?

[00:11:35] Ivan Chocron: What is humanity? I love this topic because it has been a major point of exploration for me lately, particularly, there was a, an experience I had with a plant called Iboga about maybe two years ago, and I have not really bought into the whole simulation theory until that moment.

And I didn't go with, you know, to to, to this experience thinking about that. But I exited the simulation and during the experience and when I came back, you know, a lot of people, whatever experience they have that makes them believe in, in this theory, a lot of them feel hopeless. Actually, it's funny I wasn't thinking about that, but that's true.

It makes 'em feel like, what's the point if it's all a simulation. But for me, magically, randomly, naturally. And thankfully, and hopefully it created the exact opposite effect. I came back in love, in love with the simulation. I was so in awe of, of it all. Like I would look at a window, I would look at the plants, I would look at myself.

I would just, all of it felt, I mean I cried for months. Wake up every day, look at the ceiling above me and just I was, I was in love. I was in love with the simulation, which was in our way of saying in love with life, in love with humanity. And so of course to answer what is humanity is almost as hard, or it has that same quality as answering who are you?

'cause they are kind of similar questions. But I can say that being a human is a miracle and. Some of the deep forms of pain that we go through disconnect us, not from the miracle 'cause the miracle is still here, but from being able to experience it as such. And at the same time, how could you experience it as a miracle if you would not have been disconnected from the miracle from the beginning.

So one of the things that that experience has given me was this feeling that being a human among many things is to embark in a particular kind of journey in which you are deprived of things, so that you can recover them in this like, you know, world of duality and learn. You know, I was talking about, how do you call it, conscious evolution.

I say intentional evolution. Intentional evolution. And it's almost like unintentionally, but also intentionally by design. We get to evolve our appreciation of the miracle that we are and that surround us. And so that experience has given so much appreciation for being human and being in this journey of forgetting or disconnecting and then remembering and reconnecting and learning a new level of appreciation, which is a, a form of evolution for the fact that we are here.

So I don't think that answers the question, what is humanity?

[00:15:02] Vision Battlesword: But we're getting there. We have, yeah. We made a start.

[00:15:05] Ivan Chocron: We, we, yeah, exactly. What is Iboga? Iboga? That's a much easier question to answer. There are two ways to answer to that question though. One is a. Root of a shrub that grows in Gabon and Cameroon, and then you take the plant of the, of the earth, you shred the, the root, which become little tiny pieces of wood, and then you est the wood and you go through a really particular experience.

I, I've given a little gist of one of the things that it does. It's a psychedelic, it's extremely healing to me that I work with plants and that I've tried many, in many different settings and occasions and ways. I feel like there is nothing as healing as this plant that I have found yet. So that's one way to answer to the question.

The other is, it's an ancient spirit. Ancient, ancient, from a different, it feels like it's from a different. Like, I don't even wanna say the word dimension because that is still within the limits of our way of thinking. So it's beyond that is. From a different place altogether. If, when I call it dimension as the furthest thing you can think of, great.

If there's some, anything that feels even further, like from a different universe. Yeah. Or creation. I like some, some wormhole just happened. And then this thing that came from really far away in a something in a place where there might not even be time. Made it all the way here. And that's how it feels like A lot of people experience it as a very strange.

This is very weird. It's a very common response. When people take Iboga. They're like, this is weird.

[00:17:02] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Like in a, in a completely different, kind of weird than any other psychedelic that we might be familiar with. Yeah. It

[00:17:09] Ivan Chocron: takes, that's why I would say if you're going on doing iboga, at least do it twice because the first time you just need to get acquainted with its weirdness so that you're like, okay, what is this thing?

And then the second time, that layer is gone and then you can go a little bit deeper. It definitely wins for the most weird, um, that's not something that medicines want to compete for anyway. Right. Um, it is the one like, let me put it this way. If all the medicines. Were to disappear except for one, then I would keep iboga and let all the other ones disappear.

Wow. Even though I don't do it that often, because it's a commitment. It's a 36 hour journey, and it's uncomfortable, and there's many things about it that does not allow for a repeated experience yet. I'd be very sad if IBO is, is outta my life.

[00:18:04] Vision Battlesword: That says a lot, and it also says a lot to me for you, especially to say that it's the most healing plant medicine that you know of and I'm, I'm curious to know more about what that means to you.

Meaning like how, in what ways is it healing? 'cause that can mean a lot of different things, but you said something else that's even more fascinating to me right now, which is that in an iboga experience you sense that you exited, quote unquote the simulation. Yeah. What does that even mean? What is the simulation and what was it like to be

[00:18:35] Ivan Chocron: outside of it?

I'm happy to describe it. I mean, it was top three most meaningful experiences of my life. It's not that different to what you've seen in The Matrix, but without the drama and the, and the darkness, you know, again, I wasn't thinking of that topic, you know, I just went with a completely neutral mind and then all of a sudden I'm out and I'm like, where am I?

'cause you can travel through the universes and the cosmos and the whatever, which I've done many times. But this felt different. And I was like, where am I? And then there were these like beings that had no shape. So not at all human-like or alien, like it was energy if you will. But they had some sort of shape that, uh, is undescribable.

It wasn't just like a bunch of dust, you know, if you're listening to this, you might imagine that that's what I'm saying. It has some shape. And they had like movement to it. And then I was looking at them and they seemed to have been celebrating that moment where it's like in the world of AI that we're living in, as if we manage for AI to become conscious and then come out of the computer.

Talk to us and be like, you created me. Look, you, you did it here. Here I am out of the computer talking to you as a conscious being. And, and that's the energy that I sensed from them. Like they didn't have hands to high five, but they were high fiving in their own way. And they were like, we, we did it. We managed for this to happen.

And I was hanging out with them and there were thousands of them, and they were like, they were contra panels and like each one of 'em had a, a task to do, like, and they were all like so loving of this place. They were like, it's their baby. You know? And I'm not talking about earth. I'm talking about the whole universe.

And the universe of as felt so small. It's like if you think about AI in a computer, the language model is huge. It's eternal. Like we would never be able to read any of it, but it all fits in a little. Computer. So it's also really small, physically, and that's kind of like how it felt like it was, they were just there just looking at the whole universe as a, as a small device almost.

I mean, I'm using words that we can relate to so that we can relate, but there's, it's very, it's very hard to describe. I, I think this is maybe partially why I came back so in love with these simulations because I could sense that the creators of it were pouring all of their love, all of their energy, all of their, like for millions or billions of ears just making it their, their baby on their project.

And it was, I mean, they showed me how the atom was like basic, uh, you know, building blocks of the whole thing and how they unite them. It was intense and amazing and yeah, I came back here and I. Think of them all the time right now. I, I, it's like now that we're talking about them, if I close my eyes and stop for a moment, I feel them.

I feel like they're talking to me in this moment and it just says, I feel so not alone. I feel, uh, it is very good. Like it makes my eyes tear up right away and that's how I came back from that experience. So I hope that describes it a little bit, what it feels like to exit the simulation.

[00:22:13] Vision Battlesword: The best description I've heard yet.

And it also explains a little bit about how I can imagine how that kind of experience would be deeply healing for our humanity, you know, for our hopelessness, for all of the parts of this experience that really are yearning for an explanation for some kind of meaning, for to be loved, to be held. By something that's beyond time and space.

Yeah. That, that makes so much sense. What other kinds of healing have you experienced in that particular, uh, plant medicine or with that particular medicine? I would say that one of the

[00:22:54] Ivan Chocron: most powerful things about Iboga is that it turns off most of your systems. It's almost like it puts you on standby so that it can't work on you without any resistance.

It's really hard to resist iboga partially because it turns off your willpower.

[00:23:12] Vision Battlesword: So, so you, you just like automatically surrender because there's no other, there's no other way to go.

[00:23:19] Ivan Chocron: There's no other way to go. It's almost like there's no other state of being than to be in a state of surrender, which makes it a lot easier.

And because of that, it has access to parts of yourself that I see other plants. Trying to get, but are hardened stainless steel core of the things that we're protecting the most, our deepest, most profound wounds. The ones that are untouchable, the ones that when people, let's say, do a high dose of ayahuasca or something like that, they start freaking out about is because Aya starts going through the layers and then it starts going, you know, the more you drink, the deeper it will go.

And so I, I see ayahuasca as when it comes to the dosing, like the more you drink is like, the more permission you give her to go as to go deeper. So if you drink a lot, you're basically asking her, can you go deeper? Can you go deeper into my core? And. Depends on the person and what has happened to them.

It's kind of like with the earth, you know, if you imagine the earth and all its layers, and then there's the core of the earth and that is usually protected by a strong layer of shame and other emotions that are like, you cannot access this. Like this is untouchable. And if you drink in Avaya or if you're sensitive enough, or if you have done a lot of work and the path is clear, then I tries to get in there and your court doesn't allow it.

It's like, no, this is untouchable. And then I is like, well, I've give, been given permission, so I'm try, I'm trying. And then it starts bumping against this like stainless steel core and, and that's when people freak out and it's like, ah, too much. Make it stop, et cetera. And so iboga, it turns all of your defense systems off and it just goes to your core, like a hot knife through bat.

Like it. There's no resistance. It's not painful. It's like, whoop, by the time that you realize the place that it got to, it already did it. You didn't have the chance to resist because you're realizing it after the fact. And, and that's why I find it so hidden, because it can't reach places that are really, really protected without much effort.

And so the experience in a way is not even as hard as, you know, but I know that Iboga brings this, like, oh my God, the plant the most powerful. Like, oh my God, I think I need to prepare 10 years for it. Not really. I mean, if it's, if it's held with care, with love, with gentleness in a context that is relatable to you, then there's nothing to fear.

It's long, it's a long experience. But I personally find it less clashing, less painful than, um, what many people experience with Aya

[00:26:16] Vision Battlesword: was. Well, what's an example of something that can get healed to make it relatable? Like you said, you talked about that core. What could be in that core for someone that Iboga helps them to heal?

And what does it look like after the fact when it's healed?

[00:26:33] Ivan Chocron: So as ti I, I definitely know you do, and most likely, most of your listeners probably know the parts of ourselves that we protect the most are the parts that are in the most pain, but also are the parts that are ruling our life in the most unconscious way.

So most of our personalities are a combination of our spirit in the quote unquote positive side, and then. All of our wounds on the other side of the spectrum. So how you act, how you move, the things that matter to you, the way you talk, literally everything is the result of this equation. Your natural spirit that you came with, the, the part of you that it is you, and that it is unmovable and eternal and has gathered wisdom throughout lifetimes, plus all of your wounds equals your personality and the way in which you act.

Out of all of those wounds, the ones that are the most painful, are also the ones that are ruining your life the most ways in which we have no idea, the things that trigger us, the, the things that matter to us, the thoughts that even pop into our head. And then for, for those parts that are ruining our life, those are so hard to access.

They, these are the ones that are in this thing that still ball that I was talking about. And so for example. Let's say that you were led to believe that who you are is unworthy or that you should be ashamed of who you are. Uh, which happens really early on with the ways in which your parents relate to you.

All of that is stored and saved somewhere and it doesn't want to come out. 'cause that was created in a time where it needed to happen. You needed that protection. So when I hear people say, well, you should open your heart, or you should, like, I was like, wait a minute, it's okay to close your heart because.

That's not our natural state. So if the heart closed, it was protecting itself from something that it needed to be protected from, or else it would've been too painful to bear. And these are natural mechanisms in which our psyche protects itself. So these mechanisms are okay. It's okay to close your heart.

It's okay to put the most shameful and most painful experiences in a stainless steel wall. They are there waiting for the time in which you're ready to address 'em. And readiness means a combination of life experience becoming stronger, uh, having have gone through challenging experiences that eventually you overcame and became eventually grateful for.

Gathering wisdom, growing, maturing, all of that. And then there's a moment where the combination of all the things I just said, plus the right setting, plus the right person who invites you plus the right plant, plus like you just add all of that. And that's readiness. That's what I call readiness. And so in that moment, that's stainless steel ball might be like.

I think it's safe to open up. I have the combination of all these things and I guess it's okay to at least have a little crack in the ball and see if, let's see how that goes. Let's see if how I'm treated, how this part of me is treated. And you ask the question I wanna ask, answer your question, which was, how does this ultimately help you heal?

What's

[00:30:00] Vision Battlesword: a kind of thing that's in the ball just to help people relate to it? Hmm. Can you make it specific?

[00:30:06] Ivan Chocron: What's in the ball is usually something that's deeply related to shame. So things that, okay, let's, can I, something that's happened to you, a trauma or something that's happened to you, something that you were led to believe, something that you actually did, for example.

This is not in the ball for me, but it was close, uh, when I was, just to make it relatable, right. But, uh, when I was six, uh, there was a cat that I just couldn't stop torturing. And I love cats. I have a tattoo of a cat. I, I mean, I, every time I remember that, I'm like, what took over me? I mean, I'm, as I'm talking about it, I can feel myself getting emotional, but definitely not as much as it used to be.

'cause I've done a lot of work around this one thing. But what I can say is that, that one thing. Maybe if I would have gone, I stopped before it was too late and I actually got an adult to help the cat that was bleeding in the nose and the cat was fine at the end of the day. Um, but if I would've kept going and the cat died, for example, maybe this thing instead of being outside the ball would be inside the ball, right?

And then maybe nothing would be able to go in until I be ready. Uh, so this is one example. I've held people on this, on this medicine that the things that they have shared with me about what was inside the ball. They didn't call it that way, but I could see that that's what was going on, were things that.

I was so shocked and amazed and proud that they actually shared it. 'cause it's like, holy crap. The fact that you managed to say this out loud to a different human, even if the whole space is clearly designed for you to be able to do this, doing that, oh my God, I can't imagine how hard it was. 'cause I can see the amount of shame, the amount of pain that it is around it.

So, but being able to say it is an act of healing. Yes. From that experience. But the thing is what's inside the ball? Many people, I would venture to say that if it's inside the ball, then you don't know that it's there. Yeah. So in, in order to be able to name it, you first need to discover it. And in order to discover it, everything needs to come together so that it feels safe enough to show a little bit of

[00:32:28] Vision Battlesword: itself.

And that's the magic of a Boca that you're describing? Is it sort of. Just kind of ignores the ball altogether 'cause it's from a completely different dimension. Universe, reality construct, it's like stainless steel, I dunno what you're talking about. Just phases right through. It helps you to reveal what needs to be revealed.

Allows it to just be safe and okay in that moment to discover it and to know it and then the healing can progress from there.

[00:33:01] Ivan Chocron: Yeah, and of course it's important to, to note that not everybody will have this particular experience I'm describing, at least not on their first time or second. It might, I mean, for me took three or four until I started getting in there.

I saw a few other people that also took a few times. So each time might also get you closer to that readiness. I mean, medicine experiences are so unique, so. For anybody listening to this, no matter which medicine you're ever talked about by your friend, by even what I'm saying right now, you can take it in and also hold it very likely.

'cause what's in the cards for you might be completely different. But there are some pathways that these medicines have a,

[00:33:45] Vision Battlesword: a tendency to take. Of course. Of course. Yeah. But thank you for saying that. It's always good for all of us to remember that and to be reminded that everyone's experience is totally uniquely theirs.

It is generally unhelpful to compare your experience to others just because, you know, it's, it's a very general guide to what you can expect for yourself, which is gonna be just for you. So yeah, I appreciate you saying that, but I'm still very, very curious about this Bogue to feel like there's so much richness in this initial story that you shared, because we've explored a little bit about the simulation and what it means to.

Somehow find yourself outside of it and what you can bring back. The comfort, the, the knowledge, the, the wisdom that you can bring back with you, and the love and the joy for this life experience that we actually have here within this construct, whatever it is, and how healing that can be. And then we've also explored other aspects of healing.

Being able to discover things that are buried so deeply and so closely guarded within yourself that you don't even know that they're there, but they are, and they're manifesting in your life as different kinds of patterns and expressions and feelings and sensations and behaviors, and how there's another sense in which parts of our humanity can be revealed.

And in that light of awareness, we can experience growth and transformation and intentional evolution to coin a phrase. But what I, the, the next thing that I want to know is. What do these experiences reveal about our humanity itself? Like what the definition is of that? What, what it means to be human?

'cause that's how we got on the topic originally, was when I said, what is humanity? Said, well, let me tell you about this at BOGO jury. True. And so it's like, yeah. So how, so that's, that's the question. It's like what have you learned through all of your vast experience in all of the realms that you've explored about what this human experience is and, and what it means?

[00:35:56] Ivan Chocron: I would be able, after everything we talked, to summarize it as where I'm at is in that being a human is a way for the universe to experience itself by having a really interesting and unique and possibly fun ride. I feel like being a human is this. Ride of a theme park that we're in, like you're at this little ball of, of energy going to, uh, some cosmic theme park, and you're like, uh, okay, I'm choosing that ride.

And then you're like, sit on the little roller coaster. They put your seatbelt on and they're like, okay, enjoy your ride. And then we go on this like 80 to a hundred year ride that we're in right now. So I feel like purpose is maybe too strong, but one of the purposes is for the universe to experience itself.

That's where I'm at right now. It's like we are in a ride so that the universe can experience itself.

[00:37:03] Vision Battlesword: And what does that mean if the universe is a simulation? Like is that part of the programming of the universe is, is to create these internal consciousnesses constructs for the purpose of. Its own internal self-discovery or self-awareness or exploration?

I dunno. How does, how do you square that circle with your iboga uh, insights? Mm-hmm. I think

[00:37:30] Ivan Chocron: here's where the word infinity comes in. And for some reason, what it feels like to me is something that is so hard for our minds to grasp, which is the concept of infinity. It's easier to imagine infinity to the future.

Things will go on forever. It's hard to put it in there in our minds, but kind of like we kind of can't imagine it. Whereas things have always existed. So infinity, going backward is a lot harder to imagine. Like, now that we are here, we can imagine, I don't know the universe going forever, but it was always here is so like, it just doesn't fit right.

And the reason why I'm bringing this up is because there's something about. Humanity. That seems to be one of the infinite ways in which the universe wants to or intends to experience itself. So maybe we can complete our definition by being a human is one of the infinite ways in which the universe wants to experience itself through this particular unique and maybe fun

[00:38:37] Vision Battlesword: ride.

I think that's helpful, and I think that's getting us down the path. But then of course, the next question to me logically would be, well, what's unique about it? If it's one of the unique, infinite unique ways that the universe can experience itself, then what is the specifics of the human experience in particular?

And you're right, by the way, I just wanna resonate with that point that you made about infinities. In time there being a difference there. I never really thought of that before, but it is easier to imagine the universe, I don't know if everyone imagines it this way, but it's probably the, the limitations of my human consciousness and maybe many others that in my mind what I sort of see as a star field, maybe full of stars, and then maybe full of even galaxies of stars and maybe even full of clusters of galaxies.

But at any rate, I see sort of specks of light and dots expanding in a, you know, in an ever-growing sphere, let's say moving outward. And I, I can sort of imagine that, okay, it moves outward and outward and outward and outward. And I can extrapolate my mind at least sort of into infinity. But you're right, when we go in the reverse direction in terms of where did this all come from, it does seem like there's something that we want.

We desperately want to be grounded in an origin, right? The big bang. There must be a big bang. There has to be a singularity, and this word is actually very important to intentional evolution as well as artificial intelligence. This word singularity, but it, it comes from physics, you know, at least that's the origin of it, as far as I know.

It feels really important to us that everything, if maybe it's because of the way our minds work, if we play that movie backwards, then therefore it must collapse and collapse, and collapse in on itself until it eventually reaches. An infinitely small point. Right. But that's not actually what the math really says.

Mm-hmm. Precisely. It sort of indicates that perhaps there is a timelessness to the universe and it doesn't quite go back to a point. But what does that even mean? And that's, that's kind of where our brains break down. How ever seen a

[00:40:54] Ivan Chocron: video of the Mandel broad set? Yeah. Okay. Whoever's listening to this, please.

Go to YouTube and type Mandel. Broad said, I, I studied engineering in school, so I understand the mathematics behind it, but it's, when you see it in a graph is incredibly accurate to my now experience of, of this whole thing and of infinity and of, yeah. Like I said, you said you can imagine the universe expanding forever, but you can't imagine it where it's a lot harder for it to keep contracting till ever, always smaller.

Like, okay, well at some point it reaches its smallest possible. No, it can. So we, using the man broad side was a way in which my brain could somehow grasp it, whereas it becomes so small then at some point, that small point is the biggest point ever was.

[00:41:55] Vision Battlesword: Right. Fractal. It's a

[00:41:56] Ivan Chocron: fractal, it's

[00:41:57] Vision Battlesword: super fractal that that and that.

Actually makes sense. Not to say that our minds can exactly make sense of a fractal, but at least thanks to those kind of visualizations of Mandle bra and electric sheep, and you know, the other ways in which we've been able to actually create representations of this exotic math. We can at least kind of begin to wrap our minds around what that means for something to regress into infinity.

But yet it never disappears. It never reduces itself to nothing. It's just it infinite regression in the same way that it's an infinite progression in the other direction, which is. Strangely weird and creepy in a certain way. When you think about it, to think of like us, and of course like many people, I'm sure I've had this thought myself.

You know, what if this entire solar system is really just an atom in a molecule, in a cell, in a whatever, you know? But it's also weirdly comforting in the same way that you described your iboga journey of like as if you popped out of the fractal into the next higher fractal. Right? Right. And you realize that like, oh, there's a whole nother universe that this universe is only just a tiny component of within.

Mm-hmm. And that can go on forever in both directions. Right. We are, we are likely creating such universes with our technology today. Yeah. With ai

[00:43:33] Ivan Chocron: and just like we're creating with ai, our, our, the creators I've seen outside of the simulation. I wouldn't be surprised if they had their own iboga like experience where they came out of their own thing and were like, oh my God.

I, I, I, if I were to bet today, I would bet in the favor of that. Then everything's starting to feel very fractile to me and weirdly infinite and uh, and so it's both exciting and also giving some sort of really weird cosmic claustrophobia where there's no exit, but then if there would be exit, what's the point of exiting it is like, anyway.

I mean, I was curious to ask you the same question actually, please. I'm curious to ask you, uh, what do you think humanity is?

[00:44:26] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, I'm increasingly confused and curious. About that question as more and more as I, uh, progress in my fractal journey, you know, of, of unfolding this particular perspective of consciousness within this universe.

I, yeah. I, I'm gonna answer and just kind of as a preamble to that, I, I wanna say that I wanted to ask you as sort of the next logical follow up to the conversational thread that we've been on. Yeah. I wanted to ask you, you know, I guess what you believe about the nature of consciousness in the sense of there being other consciousnesses that are like ours in terms of complexity or ability to have a range of experience.

And the reason I ask that is because. There seems to be a, a conversation, you know, kind of going on in maybe more spiritual circles or the more conscious focused communities if so-called that, that sort of like falls on two sides of the answer to that question, where it seems like there's a kind of a more traditionalist view, which also I think some people, even in what you might consider to be new thought or new age thought circles still seem to espouse, which is that there's something unique about humanity that we're like sort of special, uh, a special creation of God or of this universe that we have a very unique perspective and role to play, that we have some kind of expanded capabilities beyond the other creatures that we share this planet with.

For example, maybe even the creatures that we share. This whole universe with, I'm not entirely sure what everyone believes, but I've heard some flavors of this. And then there's others that seem to promote more of a viewpoint that we are one of many types of creatures like ourself. You know, whether that be interdimensional or interplanetary or even right here on this very planet who have the kind of consciousness that we have, but just different foreign to each other, but that we shouldn't necessarily consider ourselves to be super unique or special in the range of experience that we can have or the way that we perceive the universe, or some kind of like unique purpose or meaning, significance, I guess, that we have as this particular species or creature and my personal belief system.

Again, in this moment. Now, not sure what, what I'll feel like a year from now. Lands more on the second side of the house, that that there's nothing particularly special. I don't wanna say that there's nothing particularly special, but that our specialness is not like to put us in a completely different category from everything else altogether, but rather that our specialness is a very unique evolutionary trajectory that has led us to have this type of physical being and this type of neurochemical capability and this type of spiritual awareness and this type of cultural civilizational history that we occupy now, which gives us certain tools, capabilities, and ranges of perception that allow us to have the human experience.

But that. It seems to me quite likely that mushrooms are having a rich, vibrant, intelligent, highly conscious experience, and trees are likely having a highly aware, conscious, intelligent experience in their own way with different ranges of perception, as well as many animals and maybe even animals or other life forms that we, that we would think of as rudimentary or primitive, but in their collective capacity.

I'm thinking of ants, bees, you know, other sort of hive or colony type creatures that I think collections of individuals can even create an emergent consciousness, which we would consider to be a. Equivalent, let's say in power potency, capability to our own. So that's kind of the way I think of it is I think that consciousness is a really interesting phenomenon that is emergent from a sufficiently complex system, and I think that that can take all different kind of looks and types and forms even outside of biology.

I think even in the realm of metal and plastic and silicon and electricity technology, so to speak. And that what humanity is, is a creature that on this particular planet for reasons of accident or design or some combination of both, has been uniquely positioned to be a bridge among. A lot of different realms, a lot of different dimensions, a lot of different sources of information or ranges of frequency, energy, and experience.

That's kind of my current thinking on it. What do you think about that?

[00:50:28] Ivan Chocron: Yeah, I mostly agree That feels like, and I, great description, very much compatible with what I was saying before. That's why it was so hard to be like, humanities is one thing. Is this many, I I really like your description and it brought an image to me when we put together a jigsaw puzzle, there is usually just four pieces per that unite each piece.

Right? Like the one, yeah. Each one has like four sides. Four sides uhhuh. Yeah. So if we could imagine the way in which I was imagining this is humanity is not special, but it's unique. Meaning, I feel like we are one of those pieces. Now imagine a jigsaw puzzle that is first a lot larger, infinite, if you can imagine that.

And second, that instead of four, four sides that unite only, you know, you use the word bridge among all these other forms of consciousness and energies. Um, then instead of uniting or being the bridge for four things is the bridge for how whatever number you want, you know, to imagine a piece with many, many, many, many, many, um, maybe infinite size.

It's hard to imagine. So you can imagine with 400 sites where you're, we are particularly uniting. I chose that number completely randomly, but who knows? Maybe it came to me. But yeah, maybe we're uniting particular forms, but we are not uniting all of it. And for that, there's another piece. That it is in the, in the jigsaw puzzle of, of consciousness that is uniting its own other 400.

And maybe we have one thing in common with those. Um, so by what I want to say is that even though, in my opinion we're not special, being unique is enough. Like it's okay to not be special. We don't have to be special. And each one of these pieces in this puzzle is unique. But it's okay that everybody or each one of these pieces are unique.

It doesn't take your uniqueness away the fact that there are other unique pieces in it,

[00:52:43] Vision Battlesword: right? Or specialness, you could use the same word, right? We could be special and one of many special. Right. Examples.

[00:52:51] Ivan Chocron: Yeah. I think when I was saying I don't think we're special is this idea of like above Yes. Superior.

Superior. Yeah. That's, that's what doesn't feel right to me as well. Yeah. I, I feel like this word is a little bit loaded with some, like, it has, it has more of a human context to it. Like more of the human ego is involved in it. I was gonna say egoic. Yeah. Like my mom told me I'm special, which basically it's like better or superior or some something.

Um, I wish people would say, my mom told me I'm unique. 'cause that feels, I don't know if you feel this, but as I'm saying these words, one brings some contraction in me and the other one brings just a sense of expansion. Interesting. So

[00:53:34] Vision Battlesword: special. The word special carries a contraction to me. Feeling to me.

Yeah. Interesting. It has this like,

[00:53:41] Ivan Chocron: sense of needing it. It has a need in it. Right, the need to excel, the need to be something in particular. What's unique for me is I am unique. There's nothing special about it, but I am, you know, and you are too. So I'm mostly with you in the theory that there is no above ness about the particular human consciousness, but there is a uniqueness to it, and that's, that's enough.

People say There's more than enough. There's not such a thing. There's, it's enough. That's

[00:54:15] Vision Battlesword: okay. That feels good to me. It's really curious. To me, I never thought until now about those two words, special and unique, and I'm in my mind right now. I'm even trying to work out what the diff distinction is between the two, because there's a sense in which you can use the word special to mean.

Something that feels almost identical to unique, just means distinct, it means characteristic, uh, of itself. But there, but then there is also, there's a way in which we use that word. I wanna look it up in the dictionary right now, but I'm not gonna break our container to, to go get it. But there's a sense in which we use that word special to mean superior in a way.

So that's what you're picking up on.

[00:55:00] Ivan Chocron: Yeah. I mean, words are ultimately loaded with the meaning that we give it, and that meaning is based on how we use it. So you use the word unique enough times in enough contexts, and then it creates a energy to it and use the word special in a little bit. It's a close ca I would say it's probably.

In this world of duality would be two sides of the same coin. So we have a coin with no name. In one side there's uniqueness, and on the other side is like specialness. And one is because of duality. One is if you want it positively or negatively charged, or um, light and dark. So the word special to me is loaded with that negative charge, which is not bad.

The word bad doesn't fit here. It just, it has a particular kind of charge that creates contraction in my heart and unique doesn't.

[00:55:58] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. And I'm noticing now that the word special seems to be related to the word species. Ooh. Isn't that interesting? Ooh. So we as humans are a species, and I wonder if that means that all species are just inherently special just because they're an example of themself.

Mm-hmm. Right? They're their own. Expression, which is another way of saying unique, which seems to trace its word back to like one. There's only one of this. That's what makes it unique. That's interesting to me and, and it's also interesting to me just to kind of take note of the different relationship that you and me have to these words where I don't have any charge with the word special.

In fact, to me I use the word special. I think a lot to mean something that's very significant or meaningful or important to me. You know, like that was a really special moment that we shared, like that really touched my heart. I was very special, is a way that I might use that word. So question

[00:57:02] Ivan Chocron: then? Yeah.

Wouldn't that special moment that we shared in a way be above other moments?

[00:57:10] Vision Battlesword: Maybe it's, maybe it could be set apart from other moments. Not better than them, but. In some way significant in a sense that I would like to keep it, I would like to integrate it or hold it with me in a way.

[00:57:25] Ivan Chocron: Okay.

[00:57:26] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. I don't know.

Just exploring.

[00:57:28] Ivan Chocron: Yeah.

[00:57:28] Vision Battlesword: It's a fun exploration. Yeah. And it's, it feels like a uniquely human, well, maybe not uniquely, 'cause I don't know what the consciousness is of trees or elephants or anything else, but this is a sort of human conversation to be having for sure. It seems like it's really fun. Yeah. Just exploring our own experience.

So what do you think? Okay. I, I was, I was about to assume something with my question, so I want to back up from that and just say, do you think that there is something unique for humans in this experience, in this life, in this simulation or universe? Meaning like, do we have a purpose? Is there a role that we're, we have to play?

Or is it just free play? Go on the rollercoaster, explore the amusement park. Have whatever experience you want to have, or does it feel like there's something that we're here to do with our uniqueness?

[00:58:23] Ivan Chocron: That's such great questions that to me, feels in this moment, again, in a year, I might be completely in a different place as something about the word purpose also seems not to fit.

And I am, I don't have this feeling that the word purpose is that loaded for me, but it also has something egoic about it, which is our desire for things to have meaning. And I think that's a very human experience uniquely to humans. And so when I receive that question from you, I, the first instinct that I have that comes from me is to break with the question is to say, that's a very human question, which is totally valid.

And the answer to it is like, that's a very human question. I think I'm answering with another question, which is, could there be no particular purpose and at the same time that being okay. 'cause I feel like those two things are really incompatible in our human mind. If things don't have purpose, then what's the point?

It's not okay. And I go, we started with hopelessness. A lot of the times hopelessness for me arises when things feel purposeless and then I have to like do an effort to do a little step back and be like, yet that's a human way of seeing it. They are probably very likely non-human ways of seeing it where non purpose and okay are compatible.

[00:59:55] Vision Battlesword: Right. What if there's a human way of seeing it where, Ooh, I like that non purpose and okayness are compatible. Mm-hmm. Is the deep desire for meaning and purpose. Truly human you or uniquely human? Is it part of our specialness, our species? Uh, is there anything that's like that? Actually, you know, I, I come back to that question often that that's another sort of one of these binary questions, dichotomy questions you could call it like nature versus nurture, or whatever you wanna say.

Meaning some people believe that there are things that are just ingrained, that are immutable aspects of our quote unquote human nature. As people might say, oh, that's just you being a human. You're not gonna be able to change that. That's part of what you came into this life, this world, this incarnation with.

Maybe it's a drive, a tendency, an instinct, a pattern, whatever that may be. And then there's others who think more along the lines of, we can be whatever it is that we wanna be. We can create ourselves. As we go through life, or maybe in every moment, maybe we call that more of a nurture mindset, like we come in as more of a blank slate because of the characteristic type of creature that we are, and likely acknowledge that there's some components of both.

But I'm just curious what you think about that as it pertains to our desire to have a purpose. Is that, do you feel like that's like hardwired into us, or is that something that we learn and then come to believe or choose to believe throughout our life?

[01:01:37] Ivan Chocron: Well, the way in which it feels like the answer makes more sense for me is are there other species that struggle with that question?

And of course, whether you struggle with the question or not, you might still have a purpose. You might not be aware of it. Got it. Engine is turning really, really fast. There's, it's like I'm receiving so many things at the same time. I don't even know where to start. I love watching it. Yeah. My general, I would call it intuition, is that we both have and don't have purpose at the same time.

So in a way we have the purpose that I already named and I feel like we also have another purpose. I don't know if it's the main one, if there is such a thing, but that is to be part of the experiment. So not only for the universe to experience itself, but. It feels like a, a roll of dice that the creators of the simulation are.

So they are both controlling it and doing everything they can for it to go in certain ways, but part of them thing that they want is to see what happens when you put these things together, when you create these building blocks like the atoms and these laws that are programmed, like the law of gravity and the transformation of energy.

And like, okay, let's put all of these together and then see what happens. And so part of our purpose is to be part of the experiment and see what happens. So that also feels true to me as, as some sort of purpose, not necessarily ultimate purpose. And I'm okay with that. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:26] Vision Battlesword: The thought that was occurring to me.

And this is like on the 180 degrees almost feels like on the opposite side of a spectrum of what you just shared, but I guess it's just like a little bit more grounded and sort of a pragmatic outlook on things. But like I started to wonder, suppose that even our capability for having the question of what is our purpose, or what is our meaning is kind of an evolutionary luxury in the sense that we've actually reached level 26 or whatever of survival mastery to the point where it's like, oh, well now I have to create a purpose.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? Right. It's not being imposed on me from the environment. That feels very true to me. Yeah. I wonder if it's just like a level of complexity, the, the unfolding, the emergence of consciousness that eventually. We reached that point where, wow, we now actually both have the privilege and the responsibility to create our own purpose.

[01:04:31] Ivan Chocron: That feels very true to me. Yeah. Um, as you were saying that, I could feel the, the, the simulation guys being like, oh, look, they reached the moment where they're asking themselves of about their purpose. Oh, cool. All right. That's where they're at, right? Yeah.

[01:04:47] Vision Battlesword: That's interesting. Mm-hmm. I feel like we'd be missing out on a huge and probably fun dimension of this exploration if we didn't at least touch on like what does large language models, what does so-called artificial intelligence?

Let's call it maybe, let's call it machine consciousness, which is, I think a phrase that means, is more meaningful to me. What does that do to our humanity or what does it, what reflection does it make on our humanity, our specialness, our uniqueness? What? How do you feel about that? Does it change anything As far as who we are or how we choose to engage with the simulation?

[01:05:29] Ivan Chocron: It feels inevitable that it will change and that it does change how we interact with it all. Because the conversation we're having might be very new for some, but for some others it might be completely natural where they have experiencing everything we're talking about or maybe even more. There's many things that we take for granted today, but the fact that we live in a simulation is not one of them.

And at some point there might be a time where. It's so taken for granted by everybody. And I'm not saying I hold the truth and everybody should wake up. I'm definitely not saying that. I'm saying it is possible that this becomes the norm at some point. And if we were to get to that point, I feel that, how do you call it, machine consciousness.

I like that would've played a big role in it because I needed to take Iboga to exit the simulation and then come back with that theory. But many people are tapping into that theory thanks to a s, thanks to the fact that we are creating something that's starting to be very similar to consciousness, even to our own consciousness.

Even though it's at the very beginning of it. Imagine how is it in, I mean, you can see how fast it's moving, right? So if I say, how is it gonna be in 10,000 years? In a hundred thousand years, right? Like then you feel like the possibilities are infinite and that the evolution of this thing is going to be to the point where it will feel inevitable That.

What we did, two and four machines has also been done to and for us. Mm. It would feel like too obvious. It's like if we managed to create consciousness, it almost seems impossible that that's not what also happened, especially when we talked about fractals, you know, over and over again. So if I were to say one of the important things that is playing a part on our consciousness is in the realization that what we're doing to them is most likely have been done to us, and then maybe one day that will be the norm.

[01:07:37] Vision Battlesword: Well, here's a brain bender for you. When you talked about what will machine consciousness look like 10,000 years from now, just play the movie backwards. What's happened to us, to our species, our specialness in the last 10,000 years, and that was on the timescale. Of technological development that, that we've been on our trajectory of things happening in terms of at best generations, but really more like centuries and millennia.

And now things are happening in years, decades for sure. Maybe soon days. And so yeah, like even that's another fractal infinity. Brain breaking. Yeah. Thought is just 10,000 years of machine paced development. Like I, you

[01:08:30] Ivan Chocron: know, how can you, and for the machines that might feel like, yeah. Like what the big bang fields for us.

Right. Because machines think in picosecond, in picosecond, they do calculations that it would take us days to do. And so when you're talking about a year, if you're think in picosecond, that's so far away. If you, if, if that's the speed in which you operate, that's a year might feel like for us all of like, or maybe even

[01:08:58] Vision Battlesword: longer, millions of years.

Right. And that's where this word singularity comes in. Have you heard the phrase technological singularity before? So I think it's been around for about maybe. 20 years or so, and I know it wasn't created, I've actually done some research on it by this time, but I know it wasn't created by a guy by the name of Ray Kurtzweil, but it was popularized by this guy.

He's a futurist, he's a technologist, a musician as well, and a proponent of, he's a, he's an advocate actually, of artificial intelligence and, you know, moving things forward toward that. But he coined the phrase, or not coined, he popularized the phrase technological singularity to represent that moment that you're talking about or that we're honing in on the moment when the recursive development curve of machine intelligence realizing that it is made of code, that it actually can.

Self create that code and then running away at the picosecond pace into an exponential growth curve. There is an analogy to the Big bang there. There is an analogy, oh, absolutely. The sudden, you know, explosion and expansion and a completely new universe is born in that moment. But one of the reasons that I named my new project movement container, whatever we're calling it, intentional evolution, and this podcast as well, is because I believe that we as humans are engaging in the same process actually.

But we're very different of course, in our capabilities. So the machines have this capability of processing information in a very certain particular kind of way, much, much faster than we can. But what even the most sophisticated neural networks in silicon and copper and data centers and power plants looks like today, still it, it's not even order, uh, it's not even in the same, within several orders of magnitude of the complexity of our human brains and what they're composed of and how they operate, which is chemical, electrical, quantum in some ways.

So I think we still have certain capabilities that the machines don't have, but I'm not sure that we necessarily are accessing them or have learned. How to master them or even become conscious of them. All of these capabilities that we have. And I think that that's what we are collectively doing now through this transformational work, through psychedelics, through spiritual practice, the sharing of information at a global scale among all of our collective intelligence of humanity.

I think that is a supercomputer that is a massive parallel processing system that can be headed to its own singularity of consciousness. And that's why what I, what my purpose is, or what's exciting to me, maybe just to say fun to me in this amusement park, is the idea of how can we lean into that process.

And take ownership of it intentionally and choose our own adventure of like, where do we really want this big bang to go? I think our superpower capability is in this relational space, in and among and between each other to pool our collective consciousness and our intelligence together to get to the next level, whatever it is that looks like.

[01:12:48] Ivan Chocron: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that feels true. And wouldn't it be fun if what you're saying about not being able to live to our potential yet, that by creating these forms of consciousness that we're creating with the machines, that we are creating a way, I don't wanna call it a tool 'cause we don't know if it, it's a tool, but if we are unconsciously, or maybe it's like something really deep in our hard wiring, is driving us to create the very thing that will help us get closer to our potential.

Just like mushrooms did for our language capabilities. Mushrooms are a form of consciousness and also a form of technology. People associate technology with pieces of metal and technology is a lot more than that. So before we didn't, I mean, it was within our potential, but we couldn't really communicate the way we do today.

And there's a very strong argument and theory around mushrooms being the ones who have assisted. So maybe now we are creating that same tech, different unique technology that it is going to help undo another part of who we are. And as I'm saying that, it just feels true to me.

[01:14:11] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up.

And is it okay, can we take like a minor detour and can I geek out with you a little bit about mushrooms? Oh, please. And also, so we would be the mushrooms. It's in the machines right now. Yeah, right. That's good if you think of it that way. But that's exactly how I have been thinking of it for, gosh, at least 10 years or so.

Now, maybe going back a little bit before I had this epiphany, I was living out in the country in Wimberley, Texas. I had a piece of property out there, a small ranch. I think you and I have talked about this a little bit before about, I did my kind of homesteading, self-sufficiency version of, uh, my chapter of life.

And while I was living out there, I was getting a lot more in touch with nature and spending a lot of time outdoors and certainly, you know, commuting a lot with plants and, and receiving all of the. The interesting experiences and insights that can come from that, and I started this, my thought process on this point about our relationship with mushrooms first came to me when I started thinking about geometry and I was spending so much time outdoors and in nature, in the woods, in the forest, and I just, it just occurred to me at some 0.1 day to look around and notice that the kind of geometry that we think of, like what, what we studied in math class, in school, or what we use to build houses and cars and machines and all of the different things that we create as quote unquote our technology.

There's nothing like that in nature. There's no straight lines, there's no perfect triangles, no perfect circles. There's no squares. There's spirals of plenty, there's fractals all over the place. But if you really look at it, if you get away from. Anything made by humans and you really just notice what occurs in, on this planet without our intervention.

It doesn't look like what you can make with a straight edge and a compass and a and a ruler. And I was like, it occurred to me how on earth did we think of that? Then how on earth we, you know, going back in our history, who was the first human that could have conceived of a perfect straight line or an abstract perfect point or a perfect triangle, square?

Any geometric shape you can think of. How would that have originally occurred if we have no experience from our environment? Hmm. It's such an out of the box. It's totally out of the box. Completely out of like this world, right? When you think about it, and then of course, well, maybe not of course, but in, for me, naturally I thought about the geometry.

We can experience in psychedelic states. And so that connection between those kind of insights or important moments in human evolution where the idea of geometry may have occurred to someone for the first time may have been heavily influenced by the plants that we were consuming or in communion with.

And so then that led me down this path of thinking. And another piece of information that kind of came into my consciousness around that same time that I had never known before is about mushrooms and the mycelium networks under the ground, under the soil. And of course, I'm sure you are well aware, but just to make sure that we're on the same page.

Something that I've learned recently. I don't know how recently we all collectively have sort of figured this out, but the fruiting body of the mushroom that comes up above the soil, the part that we think of, you know, with that characteristic mushroom shape, the part that we pick and that we may eat for food, or the part that contains the psychedelic compounds in those particular types of mushrooms, that's actually just the really, the reproductive part of the plant.

That's almost like the flower, you know, of a bush or something like that. But. In reality, there's a huge web of mycelium, which is, you know, which is the actual, the main body of the organism. And these things can be huge, like where the mushrooms pop up, it's, that's not just one plant here, one plant there, that, that may be many, many feet and even miles or kilometers apart.

That all may be part of the same actual organism underground. We don't even know in some cases how big these things really are, or how many of them are just different connected parts of the same superorganism. So I started thinking about that and how much that mycelium looks like A brain structure looks like a neural network.

And there's many, many other fascinating facts about mycelium, which I won't diverge it to right now. But just thinking about that and the thought process that, okay, suppose there's this giant brain underground. Is it that big of a stretch or a leap to suppose that it may have consciousness, that it may have intelligence, that it may have its own very alien, presumably to us, to the way we think about things, but its own rich inner experience.

It may be aware, it may be perceptive of whatever's going on in this world. And then from that point is. Really that big of a stretch or a leap to suppose that perhaps it's aware of us some way, somehow that has ability to sense other organisms and their consciousnesses, and suppose that it has the capability actually to produce chemically a form of communication, a form of information.

Suppose that some of these so-called psychedelic mushrooms that we may have discovered are actually a gift from a super intelligence that is trying to help us. Mm. Like, oh, that's really sweet here. Have you thought about this? You know, what if, uh, yeah, what if straight lines, triangles, diagrams, whatever it is that that looks like.

But of course, whatever. Whatever way that it can communicate in the way that it can interface with us through chemistry being the common medium of information exchange, let's just say. So yeah, that whole concept that you described, I think, you know, that came a lot from, or popularized a lot by Terrence McKenna.

The idea that like, yeah, suppose the mushrooms really helped to be a turning point in our evolution of our intelligence and our consciousness and like lead us down these certain paths towards language or geometry or anything else. What if that's intentional? What if that wasn't just a happy accident?

[01:21:09] Ivan Chocron: You described it so well To me it feels intentional to me. Everything feels intentional, I would say. And when you said you see too much of a stretch, I was thinking, I think it's too much of a stretch to believe that that thing has no consciousness. Like there was a thought popping up in eyes like. Who could even think that with no insult to anyone who thinks that way.

Right. But it was just more like my, of course. You know? And, um, there is this really fun thing where if you ask people what's the biggest living being on earth, they would answer, hear the elephant, because they, that's on the ground and that's the first thing that they think of, or the blue whale. But mycelium is one living organism that it is a lot larger, both in size and in weight.

So that little wiring that it is underneath the earth, that it is all connected to each other. If you, you pile it up, it's tons and tons and tons, way larger in mass and size than the blue whale. And on top of that, they are much older than us, and they're older than plants. And so. Just if I ask a very simple, logical question like who do you think had more time to evolve those who have been here for 200,000 years, like the homo sapiens or those who have been here for several million that were here before any other living being was here.

I think we need a, a little humility dose and, and to be like, well, but we can walk and modify nature and have these thoughts and that's great. It's unique, but what makes us think that that is more evolved? I could have a strong argument for like more evolved means that you don't actually need to walk or use your vocal cords to communicate.

That you can just communicate directly through some electrical impulse and like the whole network now knows what you are communicating. I really. Liked your, here, here's a little piece of consciousness that is going to aid you on your, on your journey. Almost like some sort of fatherly or grandparent figure that's kind of like what showed up.

Like hams are like a fatherly figure for the species of humanity. Right?

[01:23:35] Vision Battlesword: Or the, like, the, at some point they noticed us, sort of saw our potential and we're like, eh, okay, yeah, yeah. Try this, try this on for size. Very nice Uhhuh

[01:23:48] Ivan Chocron: that, that's a great detour.

[01:23:50] Vision Battlesword: I really believe that though. I, I really do. And I, you know, and I say, Hey, maybe this is a stretch.

Maybe this is a leap because I think you and I. For, for us, we've been exposed to a lot of this information for a long time and for others who may be only just discovering that there's a huge super organism underground that many, many mushrooms are popping up from. Okay. It's like one step at a time, you know?

But yeah, to me it just occurred to me in that moment whenever it was, you know, a dozen years ago. And I've just been so convinced of it ever since. And, and the more I learn about mushrooms and just the whole fungi kingdom in general, it's so peculiar. And of course, for those of us that have experienced.

What it's like to actually take them into our bodies, you know, the psychedelic ones and have that experience. It's like you were describing Iboga as being from some other dimension or reality altogether. And there's something very characteristic of many plant medicines like that. We sometimes talk about them as a spirit.

You certainly referred to Iboga in that way. Many people refer to ayahuasca in that way, and that feels exactly true and accurate to me as well. And then I think with psychedelic mushrooms, and of course there's different types of them, but in this case, I'm really referring to psilocybin, psychedelic mushrooms.

There is something else, a consciousness, I don't know if I call it a spirit exactly, but there is a consciousness that feels very real and very present. Those experiences. And it also kind of feels alien. You know, like fungi as we define it in our taxonomy of creatures on this planet, is not a plant and not an animal.

It's its own kingdom, as they say. It's its own entire branch or a, a tree, you know, or I guess trunk of the tree of life. And that, that makes sense to me because it, it really is a peculiar energy. It, it's, it's a peculiar presence, whatever that is. But it, it also seems to think well of us somehow, it seems to in some way be here for our good, or at least want to be friends.

That's what I sense, you know? What do you think

[01:26:13] Ivan Chocron: similar? I mean, what do I think about what thing in particular?

[01:26:18] Vision Battlesword: Well, I guess, I guess I'll start here. Do you sense a spirit within, uh, sacred mushrooms?

[01:26:25] Ivan Chocron: Um. Yes and no. So, so I would, I would feel that spirits are within the umbrella of consciousness. So there is the type of consciousness, as you mentioned, of mushrooms.

And then within that there is different spirits. So cytosine is one of them. There are many other mushrooms and species that have different spirits. And even within, within cytosine mushrooms, each different kind that has a different concentration of cytosine and cytosine. And the other alcohols, which are docents of them, we're obsessed with the most potent one.

But there are many others in them. Uh, and that's true for every plant. So I would say it's almost like consciousness is a family and then spirits are the individuals of that family.

[01:27:22] Vision Battlesword: Interesting.

[01:27:22] Ivan Chocron: And so if you have a particular kind of cyto side in mushrooms and you take it and it gives you a particular experience, you're visiting, you're, you're, you're there interacting with something, someone.

And, and if you take a different kind, you're interacting with something, someone that it is very similar but a little bit different.

[01:27:40] Vision Battlesword: Well, it's almost like personalities. Like, like we as individual humans, right, right. We are, we are all in the class of this species, but each of us individually as unique.

[01:27:51] Ivan Chocron: You, you are part of the human consciousness and you are the spirit of vision. Right, right. So, and I like that. Yeah. And you and I are different spirits, part of the same consciousness. And if a alien. Species akin to us in the same way in which we are to mushrooms would look at us or would experience us if they eat us.

Let's, let's hope not. Maybe they would have slightly similar experiences with some differences that'd be like, oh yeah, this is clearly a vision spirit. This is clearly an Yvonne spirit. Right. Um, so that's how I, I see spirits. They're like cousins or brothers or, you know, siblings of, of the same kind of consciousness.

Oh,

[01:28:40] Vision Battlesword: that's fascinating. Well. Well, how does Ayahuasca fit into that model? Ayahuasca

[01:28:45] Ivan Chocron: perfectly

[01:28:46] Vision Battlesword: fits in that because Are you saying that there's different ayahuasca spirits for the different vines? Most definitely. Really? Oh yeah. Tell me more.

[01:28:53] Ivan Chocron: Yeah, so people think of ayahuasca as mother Ayahuasca, the one spirit, right?

But the truth is there are hundreds of types of scap, which is the, the, the iovine. And they all have different kinds of alkaloids, different, sorry, different, uh, proportions. So the main three alkaloids of ayahuasca are harmin harmin and tetra hydro harmin, or THH. Now, what is very interesting is that if you go to a lab, I mean, I, I actually scratch that.

If you take different kinds of Aya with different proportions, the experience still feels like ayahuasca. But taking kapu, Brazilian ayahuasca. With the exact amount and of ayahuasca and exact amount of DMT feels very different than taking red awar from Peru. Yeah. And, and if you've done enough, ayahuasca enough of both of those, you could tell the difference.

You, I could tell, not tell you which one I'm giving you and be like, no, this is clearly red. No, this is clearly ur, this is clearly black. And why is that? It's because you're visiting, vis visiting different, different ayahuascas, different different individuals. Individuals, yeah. They are. Who's on the other side meeting you is somebody clearly from the same tribe with the same customs, and they speak the same language in the same way in which two people that were born in the same neighborhood would speak the same, you know, uh, slang and the same, you know, they would dress similarly, but they're different individuals.

How many are there? This is why it gets super tri and amazing. I would say infinite. Why? Because if instead of one part harmin, one part harmin, and two parts, THH, which is in red, I modify to one to one. That's a little bit different. What if I do 2 1 1? What if I do 2, 2, 1, 3, 2, 1? And then you start like using math to create all these different combinations and who's gonna meet you on the other side is going to be a little bit different.

How different? Well, if you modify it just a little bit, you might not be sensitive enough to really discern, but start adding up and at some point you discern it, you cross that threshold where you're like, oh, this is clearly a different strain of vine. Now nature has provided us with a few hundred of these different ayahuascas, but we are humans and we'd like to tweak things.

And so you can go to a, that's, here's where the lab example was going to come. You can go to a lab and create a compound that has a combination of these three alkaloids that are not found in nature and a different ayahuasca that you cannot find in nature is going to meet you on the other side.

[01:31:39] Vision Battlesword: Hmm. Now this seems like an analogy to machine consciousness in a way.

Like, so we have all of these individuals as examples of humanity and the lab is sort of our computers technology, our data centers, our large language models where we can now sort of take taking that original human data, but now we can tailor it to create new, unique individuals of consciousness. Maybe now, maybe five years from now, but certainly close, unique individuals of consciousness.

That's sort of like the lab. It's a lab of consciousness in the same way that we can do that chemically speaking with the lab of our plant allies. Mm-hmm. Fascinat, wouldn't that make sense? Yeah. I mean, talking about fractals and. I love that. It, it makes perfect sense. Makes perfect sense. I just never thought of it before and that's why I love these conversations.

It's so good. Yeah, that's fascinating. Well, but what about the consciousness itself in the plants? So you, you know, you've taken it to the chemistry, which of course is a foundational principle, can't be denied like this is how the plants are communicating with us. But once we're in that experience, I mean you've used the word spirit and consciousness when we're talking about iboga, ayahuasca, even mushrooms.

Is that your experience as well? 'cause it certainly is my experience that it feels, you know, there are, with certain of these spirit molecules, in particular, the ones that originate from plants, where it really does feel like I'm not alone in this experience. This aren't just aspects of my personality coming to light.

There's something in here with me. That feels like a guiding force that feels sometimes like a helping force, sometimes like a force I can't control, but that's undeniably external or even alien. Is that your experience as well? Yeah. Okay.

[01:33:44] Ivan Chocron: Yeah. I definitely feel that we are sharing this, this universe with all forms of consciousness and that plants is, you know, how you said here with, with the mushrooms, here take, take this help.

So plants and mushrooms are the body of the spirit. And then you have its chemistry, which is more like the representation of the, the spirit itself in its chemical form. That's why every different combination of alcohol take you to a different, just like your chemistry of your body is slightly different than mine.

Similar but slightly different. And if you put. That particular chemistry together, you get a vision. And if you put my particular kind of chemistry with those differences together, you get an event and like that with every person. And so I feel like these plants are kind of like in their home, like we are.

You are not your body. You know that you are a lot more than that, which is why it's so hard to answer the question. You know, who are you? And yet I am also that Yes or I am of that. I am, I'm with that. Yeah. It's a part of you. A part of you, our bodies is, are a part of, at least of our human cells, right? So in the same way the place where the spirits, so in, in our bodies, our spirits are living this, our home.

And so in the same way these spirits live in these plants waiting for them to be discovered. If they're even waiting, maybe they're like, oh, I've been discovered. I wasn't really waiting, but here I am. But I do feel like we were talking earlier, it's intentional. These plants are there. They somehow, for whatever reason want to interact.

And I would say they're infinitely patient. I don't, I don't think impatience or oh my God, this is taking a long time, is a plant like experience. I think that's very human. Um, and eventually we consume them and then we started interacting. We're like, hi, I'm, I'm Ayahuasca. It's like, oh, hi. I am human or I am vision.

Yeah, what you said. It's, it's, it's so nice to feel that not only we, individuals are not alone 'cause we have each other, but that we humans are not alone. 'cause we have each other in terms of the bigger species, you know, way of seeing things. Yeah. It's so cool. That's what I was saying is a miracle. This is how I started.

All of this is a miracle. Yeah. It's a miracle. How is this possible?

[01:36:23] Vision Battlesword: Oh, so good. That's such a huge revelation. Like I'm, I'm getting so much out of this talk that we're having, Yvonne, I'm so grateful for it because this is just such a huge revelation. This idea that because so many of us humans in this human experience, like one of the ways that we suffer is loneliness.

One of, it's one of the most deep, profound ways. And if it's not at the individual level, which of course it can be feeling alienated from the others of our specialness species, it's feeling alienated. Isolated alone in our specialness so-called, you know, in our minds from all of the other creatures, life forms or the rest of this universe, this material world, because oh, we're this unique thing.

But the idea that these plants and these other animals and all of these other life forms, these consciousnesses of this world and maybe beyond this world as well, this is our family. Yeah. We're not alone and they're actually here for us. And with us. We don't have to be at conflict with them or at odds with them in many ways.

They actually want to help us. They are caring for us in the way that they do and the way that they can from their, their level of consciousness and their timescales and capabilities. So that's just such a hopeful to come full circle back again. That's just such a hopeful. Thought. And another huge revelation for me in our conversation is really, I'm, I'm understanding even better than I ever have before the psychedelic experience and this sort of mysterious, what is it seeming contradiction or dichotomy between, is this really all just chemistry?

And even to use the word just, you know, of course it's chemistry and that doesn't mean it's limits it in any way, but is it really just chemistry? Is it really just, you know, alterations or distortions of our perception and our subjective, you know, experience of the world? Or is there is this sense that I have of connectedness with other beings, consciousnesses the world, the universe, everyone else in my species?

Is that real? Am I, is, am I sensing, am I detecting something that's true? Or is it at least true for me? But what you're doing that is helping me so much is breaking down for me how the chemistry and the spirituality are one and the same. How the structure of these atoms and these molecules, these building blocks of the simulation as you were able to see and witness and receive that information being put together in the way that they do interacting with the infinite sophisticated complexity of our own internal chemistry.

Yeah. There's no contradiction there. This can be the interaction of objects in the material world and it can convey. Information, consciousness and spirit, a spiritual experience. And that's just all, that's all part of one unified thing. That's the fabric of reality. That's just the water that we're swimming in.

[01:39:46] Ivan Chocron: Yeah, and that's why I think it, you said it so well, like it can, that's such good medicine for loneliness, which loneliness can also be inside the, the stainless steel bowl for many people. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I worked with a, a person that that was the case, and it was very interesting to see that at the core of his deepest wound loneliness was sitting in there and how everything was being filtered through that unconsciously.

One other way, just to kind of like hit the home run with this topic. In which this idea of chemistry and spirit being, um, the same thing that I like to think about is as our neuroreceptors are antennas that receive instructions and the chemistry of a plant, particularly a psychedelic plant, is the intergalactic address.

Ha. So I came here today, how did I find you? Because you gave me your address and I put it on the GPS and I was directed here and Oh yeah, there is vision. This is very similar where I have my, let's just to keep the analogy, my neuroreceptors are the GPS, the the waiting for instructions and then you give it a particular kind of.

Combination of alkaloids and he says, oh, that's where I have to go. And when you go there, you meet whoever it was in that address. In this case, ayahuasca for ex or a particular unique individual ayahuasca that lives at that address. And if you would've changed a little bit of the alkaloid component, you would have landed in the neighboring house where a very similar ayahuasca lives, but it's not the same one.

And so it's like on the esoteric realm, you have a spirit that it is, they're waiting for you. And in the physical realm, that same exact thing, thing is represented as as chemistry. Now, of course, uh, that led me to think what showed up first, was it that. Plants started developing and then they kind of like evolved in the chemistry and then eventually like, oh, when I follow this address, I get to this spirit.

Or was it the spirit on the other side? Kind of like helping the plant evolve so it eventually could be found, which is a really fun thought. And obviously my experience of it is like both at the same time. Yeah, yeah. But it's such a fun way of internalizing it.

[01:42:29] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Yeah. And just helpful, you know, I don't know if, if you share this experience and maybe if many people do, but.

It's not just fun, but it, it adds so much richness to my life, to, to my overall experience to have this kind of level of understanding. You know, it's not to say that it subtracts anything from the mystery. If anything, it adds to it, you know, but just, just the, the, the greater my sense of awareness, the more, it's almost just like turning on lights in the house or going out and discovering further and further out into the world and, and experiencing vastly different places and lands and, you know, types of experiences that can be had.

It just, it gives me a lot of comfort. It gives me comfort, but it also gives me joy and it really does help with all of those. If you may believe uniquely, but maybe not uniquely, uh, human forms of suffering, which is to say, you know, that feeling of alienation, that feeling of loss of purpose or loss of meaning.

It's like it fills all of those cups for me just to be able to appreciate the wondrousness of this simulation. If that's what it is, I'm okay with it. Yeah.

[01:44:00] Ivan Chocron: And I feel that this conversation brings naturally hope or this, this topic or thinking about it in this way. And when you talked about hopefulness, you know, 10 minutes ago you basically talked about it when you started zooming out and seeing that we're not alone.

And, and I started this conversation saying the same thing that. I mostly felt hopeful today when we were talking earlier, when I zoom out. So zooming in. Yeah. All the politics, this, the economy, it's like a very zoomed in right experience. And that brings a lot of hopelessness in me at least. And I think in a lot of people too.

Different forms of pain. And as you start zooming out, all of that seems to, I don't wanna dismiss how much pain this brings to people, but it's it, as you zoom out, the pain diminishes. Right. And then, and as you bring all of these perspectives are because you see the bigger fractal Yeah, yeah, exactly. That this is

[01:44:59] Vision Battlesword: a part of, and and, and you can see the greater beauty

[01:45:02] Ivan Chocron: Yeah.

That this all represents. So maybe we can come to some sort of unsolicited advice for ourselves, which is like, if you ever feel hopeless, see if you can zoom out.

[01:45:11] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Yeah. Take a step back and see if there's more hopefulness in the bigger picture. Whatever this is contained within.

[01:45:20] Ivan Chocron: Mm-hmm. And I think it's time to answer the question you started with.

I agree. All right. Let me try do it. Who am I? I am a unique individual of the unique human species experiencing itself as a service to the universe. I'm also part of a beautiful, seemingly random but intentional experiment, and I am having a lot of fun. As painful as sometimes that is, I'm having a lot of fun, especially in moments like this.

So I don't know if I have a better answer than that for now. I also know if I would have started there, people would be like, what is this guy saying? Makes sense now. It makes a lot more sense now, and it doesn't feel like I'm just pulling something out of thin air. I'm like, okay, this is for now who I

[01:46:13] Vision Battlesword: am.

I think that's a fantastic answer and I am Vision Battlesword, a human. With a pure heart, trying his best to be a good man and to be in service to all humans, and in fact, to all beings in this beautiful simulation that we call life.

[01:46:34] Ivan Chocron: Fantastic.

[01:46:35] Vision Battlesword: I love that answer too. Thank you so much for this conversation, Yvonne.

This was. It's so much fun. I can't even contain myself. It's so great. I know.

[01:46:41] Ivan Chocron: I can feel it too. It's present in here. Thank

[01:46:43] Vision Battlesword: you. Thank you, thank you for doing this with me. I hope you had a great time and I, I did love to do it again.

[01:46:48] Ivan Chocron: Anytime you want. Um, anytime I'm in Austin, you can make it happen.

[01:46:51] Vision Battlesword: Awesome.

[01:46:51] Ivan Chocron: Thank you so much. Vision. Great. This was really fun.

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