Vision Battlesword and Kayla Rodriguez take the word "conflict" all the way back to its roots. They start neutral, defining conflict as two forces in perceived opposition making contact - a tension that can push, pull, or hold distance - and build from there. Contact turns out to be the requirement: alone in the woods there is only inner conflict. Nature's obstructions look more symbiotic than combative, which raises the possibility that conflict is partly a human-consciousness construct, and the Oxford English Dictionary lands them on "to strike together, to clash, incompatible." Threaded through it all is Intentional Evolution, which Kayla frames as directing life force, and which Vision connects to the Toltec meaning of intent as life force itself.

From there the conversation turns from truth to perception. Conflict lives less between facts than between stories, each person's honest perception of reality, and it tends to evaporate the moment real understanding arrives, because conflict survives on ambiguity and missing information. Much of it is manufactured on the inside: a fear-narrative filling an information vacuum, a boulder that grows the longer it rolls downhill, two people escalating the very same story from opposite roles.

Then the practical heart: the equation of repair. It is not a script but a cycled toolkit, run like a load of laundry until the thing comes clean. The ingredients include generosity and good faith (conflict is not combat), the willingness to be seen and to be vulnerable, owning your impact without taking ownership of the other person's experience, and above all emotional contact - turning your attention so far outward that you set your own personality aside, then reflecting back in your own words so the other person feels not just heard but understood. The refinement back and forth, finding the essence together, is what Kayla calls the relational gold.

The last movement scales all of this up to community. Witnessing and transparency turn a private rupture-and-repair into something that makes an entire group more cohesive and resilient, while a community that cannot hold conflict simply falls apart. The drama triangle of victim, persecutor, and rescuer is a stable shape, which is exactly why we keep collapsing into it, and its empowered form of creator, challenger, and coach offers the way out. The episode's central reclamation is triangulation itself: not the psychological insult of ganging up, but the navigator's third point that lets you finally locate where you are. A resilient community becomes a mesh where anyone can be someone's third point, and the simplest first move in any conflict is to ask for help. Listeners are left with a compassionate coda: not every conflict resolves, and choosing to step back and self-resource is valid too.

Show Notes

Chapters

• 00:00:00 - Who Are You Now, Kayla Rodriguez?
• 00:06:37 - What Is Conflict? Tension, Force, and Contact
• 00:11:49 - Perception vs. Truth: Whose Reality Is Real?
• 00:27:10 - Is Conflict a Human Invention? Nature, Etymology & Needs
• 00:30:56 - Conflict in Community: Rupture and Repair
• 00:41:11 - Conflict as the Engine of Evolution
• 00:47:04 - The Equation of Repair: Generosity & Owning Impact
• 00:58:48 - Attention Out: Putting Your Personality Down
• 01:11:06 - The Drama Triangle and the Empowerment Triangle
• 01:18:29 - Reclaiming Triangulation: The Third Point We All Need

[00:00:00] Vision Battlesword: Hello. Welcome to the Intentional Evolution Podcast. I am your host, Vision Battlesword, integral consultant and founder of iEvolve Life, a personal and professional development practice based on the philosophy of intentional evolution. This podcast is an ongoing conversation to explore that philosophy, as well as to serve as a resource, a showcase, and a catalyst for ongoing growth toward the human singularity.

That is to say, mass awakening of new consciousness, super intelligence, and radical creative flourishing. Each episode, I'll feature a world-class transformational facilitator, co-creator, or friend to reveal cutting edge psychospiritual technology, unpack our deepest wisdom, and evolve our awareness. This series is based on value for value, so whatever value you receive from these transmissions, please return some value back in the form of a donation directly supporting our contributors or offering your own time and talent as a producer.

Thanks for joining me in this journey, and now here's our episode Howdy, Kayla

[00:01:10] Kayla Rodriguez: Hi, Vision

[00:01:11] Vision Battlesword: Welcome to Intentional Evolution. Thanks for stopping by for another conversation with me.

[00:01:16] Kayla Rodriguez: It's always a pleasure.

[00:01:18] Vision Battlesword: Well, surely you remember, maybe you don't, 'cause it was a couple years ago. It was the last time we actually did one of these recordings, but do you remember my opening question?

[00:01:28] Kayla Rodriguez: I feel like you asked me who I am.

[00:01:31] Vision Battlesword: That's it.

[00:01:32] Kayla Rodriguez: And I hated that question.

[00:01:35] Vision Battlesword: How do you feel about it today?

[00:01:37] Kayla Rodriguez: Um, I feel actually a bit more confident in answering it, which is nice. Um, but there is still a low level of anxiety in defining who I am or what I do in the world.

[00:01:50] Vision Battlesword: Are you open to trying it now?

[00:01:52] Kayla Rodriguez: I am so open to trying it now.

[00:01:54] Vision Battlesword: Who are you, Kayla Rodriguez?

[00:01:57] Kayla Rodriguez: I am an event producer and organizer. I host an epic venue in South Austin called Casa Mimosa. Um, and I'm a consultant for many things that have to do with creating containers for transformation and, like, how to hold safety through structure. That's who I am right now.

[00:02:20] Vision Battlesword: Nice.

And I'm sure wait a little while, and it'll continue to evolve, right?

[00:02:26] Kayla Rodriguez: For sure. I'm actually curious to go back and listen to the last one and listen to who I was-

[00:02:32] Vision Battlesword: Yeah ... when we

[00:02:32] Kayla Rodriguez: did that.

[00:02:33] Vision Battlesword: Right? 'Cause that was, what, over two years ago- Yeah ... surely by now. Yeah, I would like to go back and listen to that as well 'cause I remember that being a really rich conversation, like one of my favorites of that old series.

And it's just so interesting, I think, to see those little snapshots that we can make of ourself at a point in time. Like, gosh, who was I in 2024, you know? Who am I now? Who was I five years ago, 10 years ago? It's kind of interesting to see. And I also love just listening to how people define themselves when they're given, uh, given more spaciousness to kind of feel into that answer in the present moment rather than just rattling off a scripted response, you know, because I'm in whatever social setting that I am.

You know, "Oh, I'm in a professional environment. Here's my resume." "Oh, I'm at a party. Here's the things that I like to do," or, "Here's where I'm from." But rather, like, what is my beingness? You know? What's my identity of this time and place in my life? So I just, I just really like to open that up for people.

And another question I like to ask too, because this is the theme of the show, and I'd just like for us all to kind of be creating a little bit of a coherent field together of this specific topic, what does intentional evolution mean to you?

[00:03:51] Kayla Rodriguez: Hmm. I like this question. Yeah, when I think about intention, just that word on its own, I think about giving my life force energy a direction to follow.

So then when I add that, add in the intentional evolution, it feels like I'm directing my life force energy in a way where it is transforming, evolving, meeting this next moment exactly where it is continually.

[00:04:25] Vision Battlesword: That's really cool for me to hear because are you familiar with the term intent as it pertains to Toltec spirituality or Toltec philosophy?

[00:04:34] Kayla Rodriguez: No, I am not.

[00:04:35] Vision Battlesword: So the word intent, and this, this is like the Carlos Castaneda lineage or the Don Miguel Ruiz lineage. He's the guy that wrote "The Four Agreements."

[00:04:44] Kayla Rodriguez: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:44] Vision Battlesword: Prob- every- you know, most everybody in our circles is familiar with. But that whole Toltec, Mexican, shamanistic, sorcerer kind of lineage, and also just sort of a, a philosophy of life, way of living, the word intent literally means life force.

That's actually, that's what it is. So it's when we talk about bringing intent into our body or focusing our intent, they're literally talking about what are you doing with your energy of life. So that's exactly how you defined it naturally without even, you know, knowing that school of thought. Yeah.

That's really cool.

[00:05:18] Kayla Rodriguez: My, um, inner good student is like, "Oh, I got the answer right somehow," even though it was just my interpretation of what intentional evolution is. But there is something in hearing that reflected in a whole body of work and intelligence that I know nothing about, and there's something satisfying about feeling connected to that without knowing the depth of it.

[00:05:40] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. I just love the synchronicity of it, you know, 'cause you said, "Well, that's something I have no knowledge about." Like, well, clearly you do. And I just think it's so interesting, and I find it delightful when we have some kind of an immediate connection like that in this frame, in this body of work, you know, that we're creating, this intentional evolution ongoing conversation, 'cause I know that we've got some coherence as a starting point.

It's like, okay, we're, we're on the same page here. We're channeling our life force in a self-directed, in an agentic, on a autonomous way into our process of evolution. Like, there's this evolutionary process which is unfolding, but that intentional evolution is taking ownership of it, choosing to be in participation with our process of evolution is what it means to me.

[00:06:28] Kayla Rodriguez: For sure. And I heard you say, like, self-directed and autonomous in that. And I also wanna invite in, like, group intention and how powerful, or, like, field intention and how powerful that can be. Yeah, so, like, the solo journey with it as well as, like, being part of a collective and, like, what is our collective intentional evolution.

[00:06:48] Vision Battlesword: Totally. R- r- right on theme with everything that we've been talking about for this whole series so far. So I feel like we're, we're in the zone, and as usual, we have, like, one big word that we use as a starting point to explore some aspect of intentional evolution and what does this mean and what are we doing with it.

And you and I were having a great conversation a few weeks ago at your house at the time Which kind of felt like it served as the seed, the starting point for what we're gonna talk about, 'cause you brought it, you know, you came here to talk today and said, "Well, what's alive for you?" And this word came up.

On that theme, that point that you just made about what are we doing with the collective, which is not to say that this word only has to do with, let's say, interactions between people or more than one thing or entity, but there's something about that. And so what is conflict?

[00:07:45] Kayla Rodriguez: Conflict, I would say in its most basic form, is tension.

Like, if I'm gonna speak about things in terms of energy, I would say that conflict is tension. Like, two opposing or energies that are in opposition of each other coming together and just it feels like this pushing up against one another.

[00:08:10] Vision Battlesword: Two energies in opposition coming into contact with each other is conflict.

Why do you use the word energy?

[00:08:18] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, now as I'm reflecting on that, sure, it could be energy, it could be philosophies, it could be Physical. Like it doesn't have to just be the, the energetic realm. But I use energy as a, like energy is running through and with everything, so it felt like the most universal term to, to use to describe it.

[00:08:41] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. But conflict has something to do with tension and opposition. That's what's coming up for you right now.

[00:08:49] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah.

[00:08:50] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. How can two energies... Okay, let's start from-- We'll go all the way down to the fundamentals. We do that a lot on this show, which is great, and I, and I love kind of building our way back up from there.

So let's just say energies is, like, the most universal concept we can think of, of two different things that could somehow be in conflict with each other. How do two different energies have an oppositional relationship? Or how do they-- What does tension mean as it pertains to different energies? Maybe what do we even mean by different, like, if we're talking about energy?

[00:09:26] Kayla Rodriguez: Oh, this is great. Let's pull it fully apart.

[00:09:28] Vision Battlesword: Yeah.

[00:09:29] Kayla Rodriguez: Tension. It's, uh, it's interesting 'cause as I'm saying the word tension, I'm taking my hands and I'm pushing them together.

[00:09:35] Vision Battlesword: Yeah.

[00:09:35] Kayla Rodriguez: So when I'm trying to describe it, I'm trying to feel it in my being, like, "Oh, what does this feel like? How do I define tension or opposition?"

And it feels almost like a stopping point, like I'm being met and it can't move. Hmm. Like I'm at a stopping point. I'm meeting this thing, either a, a wall or, or something that I cannot move past without, and I, I'm sure we'll get to this eventually, but without working with that point at which we've met at.

[00:10:10] Vision Battlesword: Hmm. Yeah. Okay. So there's something about conflict that has to do with resistance or blockage, obstacle. Like one thing prevents another thing from continuing in its path, and that makes sense when we think of the word opposition and what that means. Like we can think of opposition in the sense of an opponent, which we sometimes would mean, like enemy or adversary.

But opposition in a neutral sense just simply means opposites, kind of two things are pointed in different directions or, you know, maybe one thing that's in motion and one thing that's at rest. Maybe two lines that are kind of perpendicular to each other and the point where they cross is, could be considered that point of conflict or that point of opposition.

[00:11:02] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, and I'd even, like, clarify that I, I think it's perceived opposition, because I find that many times in conflict there's a perception or a... Oh, maybe I'm changing my definition a little bit right now. But I think there's something where I have a reality and you have a reality, and they come to meet each other in a moment of a relational dynamic, and our realities are not lining up right now.

Where the truth is could be the same exact thing, but the way that we're perceiving it could be in opposition of each other or opposite from each other. Or not even fully opposite. It could be, you know, 30% different.

[00:11:47] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. That's an interesting point, right? 'Cause when we bring in the word opposition, that does bring up the concept of opposite, which we usually mean as sort of that which is fully not the other thing, I guess.

I don't know. I, how do I define the word opposite right now? But it's sort of, you know, black and white are opposites, and they're sort of on different... Hmm. E- every time I try to define it, I keep using the word opposed or opposite or... What does that even say? So if, if, if there's a spectrum and one thing's all the way on one side and one thing's all the way on the other side, then we can call those things opposites.

But to your point about conflict, two things don't necessarily need to be opposite in order to be in conflict. Yeah. There can be, like, a very small amount, actually, of difference between two things. Maybe those are perspectives or Again, we can say energies or people in a relationship, and yet we can perceive there to be a conflict.

And that word perceive, you brought up too, perception, and you compared it to truth. And I kind of wanted to get a little curious about that. Like, well, what is truth as compared to perception?

[00:12:58] Kayla Rodriguez: This is interesting. I was having this conversation recently with some people I'm in a training with, and they were talking about objective truths.

And I just sat there and I was like, "What are you talking about?" Like, what is an objective truth? So this is actually a topic that I, I don't feel really clear on. Some people would say, like, certain scientific evidence and all of that is objective truth. Whether it's the earth is round or that plant is growing up that wall or anything of that sort could be considered an objective truth.

And I think there are so many, like, filters happening through our minds and our eyes and our being that create our own personal truths and our, what did I call it before? Our perception of what's going on, our created reality.

[00:13:49] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Do you believe in objective reality? Do you believe that there is some absolute truth that we are perceiving differently, but that it's fundamentally there?

That there-- If there was a perfect observer, it could be observed

[00:14:11] Kayla Rodriguez: I'm on the fence about that one.

[00:14:12] Vision Battlesword: Uh-huh.

[00:14:13] Kayla Rodriguez: Some parts of me really wanna say yes. Like, the really scientific parts of me, the one that's like, "Yeah, clearly, you know, if there was this perfect observer, they could see very clearly what is happening."

And there's another way far other end of the spectrum of me that is like, "This is all a hallucination. I don't know what's happening. How could there ever be a perfect ob- observer of everything that's happening?" So yes and no, and I know that that's not a clear answer, but I do tend to hold both ends of the spectrum on that piece.

[00:14:49] Vision Battlesword: It feels important to get clear on that when we're talking about conflict in a way, right? Because that's where so much conflict, I think between people anyway, seems to come from. It, particularly that example that you used of, let's say, two different people who have a different, call it understanding of reality.

What I believe the facts are, let's just say, are different than what you believe the facts are. And we can both be sincere in that. One person doesn't have to be deceiving the other or even in a state of delusion or self-deception. We can be legitimately perceiving reality, whatever that means, or truth differently.

But whether or not we... I guess, let me rephrase. But what we believe about the underlying existence or nonexistence of objective truth or objective reality It would seem to me is important to how we would resolve a conflict, perhaps. Do you, do you see what I'm saying, or have I gone, like, way too esoteric?

[00:15:51] Kayla Rodriguez: No, I definitely see what you're saying, and I find myself really having this desire to, a desire to and a resistance to at the same time, finding the equation for conflict. Mm-hmm. Like, finding the equation that creates conflict before finding the equation that maybe dissipates the conflict. And one of the things that you just said was this understanding, and I think that conflict can often arise from a lack of understanding from one person, one entity, one collective to another.

[00:16:27] Vision Battlesword: Right, because, I mean, again, just intuitively, if we think about conflicts that m- we may have experienced personally, a lot of times I've found that when understanding manifests, the conflict just suddenly kind of disappears or it evaporates. It's almost like the conflict itself was existing within a state of ambiguity or missing information somehow.

[00:16:54] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, exactly, and I'll, I'll bring in, like, a little bit of authentic relating language here, which is people often claim their perception of reality, their perception of what's happening as their stories. So we each have our own stories of what's happening in a conflict. I have my story of what's going on.

You have your story of what's going on, and if we just sit in those stories, nothing's gonna move with the conflict. It will remain. But if we're able to be with our story, yes, but then hear the story of the other in the conflict, I think that's where we start to build understanding. And exactly as you said, when I fully understand, and fully is a dramatic term in this way, but when I un- understand as far as I can into this other human's reality, I tend to soften, and the conflict tends to resolve itself.

And there's a million other parts to this equation as well. It's not just understanding, but I think that that is, like, a key foundational aspect to creating or resolving conflict.

[00:18:00] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Well, I loved what you said a minute ago about finding the formula of conflict or the equation, and I think w- along the way, we're probably gonna continue to use Real world examples or thought experiments of, well, what does not conflict look like?

Or what does resolution of conflict look like from our own experience or our insight or our intuition as a way of ref- like creating those different perspective of reflections to help define that? But I love staying on that track because that feels really fun and interesting to me. What is the equation or the formula that creates conflict or that defines what conflict is?

And I, and I wanna pick back up on answering that question from when you were pushing your hands together and like the very, very first things that you said, that it feels like conflict feels like two things pushing up, up against each other, which I thought was really interesting. And you'd also described it as almost like the sense of there being an obstacle, two things that maybe want to move and they can't because of the resistance or the tension that's created in their relationship to each other.

And I also wanna ask, like, well, could conflict also feel like pulling tension? The, the pushing was interesting to me 'cause I hadn't really thought of it that way before.

[00:19:22] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah. I think it could be any meeting and any pushing, pulling. It could, I think, even be standing at a distance, like the absence of... I wouldn't say necessarily the absence of tension, but the absence of pressure.

Hmm. Thinking specifically of avoidance or probably any combination of those things, too. Like think about, you could think about like a classic, if we're gonna talk about attachment styles for a second, like anxious and avoidant. There could be a conflict in the middle of those, but one person is pulling away and avoiding, and then one person is trying to pull.

Yeah, so I think this conflict point, and we can bring it back to tension, too, like what creates tension? Is it just like I feel tension when I push, but I also feel tension when I pull? I think there's also a possibility to feel tension in any combination of those embodied or energetic experiences.

[00:20:25] Vision Battlesword: Yeah.

The word force is coming up for me. Like, there's something about conflict that has to do with force. It has to do with two forces that are somehow in opposition. And when you talk about those attachment styles, like anxious and avoidant, or when you talk about the relationship between conflict and distance or keeping distance, it makes me think of people who might be trying to avoid conflict, and by keeping their energy at a distance, they're trying to prevent that collision of forces.

The word collision is interesting in relation to conflict. Huh. It felt like contact was important, and that kind of feels true for me Like maybe some of those other definitions that you were bringing up are actually more about strategies that people employ for trying to avoid the conflict, which is perceived.

But the conflict itself that maybe is trying to be avoided is the expectation of a collision of forces, which could do something, create damage, release energy. I don't know.

[00:21:41] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, I like this collision and bringing in contact. Uh-huh. Um, I would definitely add that into the equation of creating conflict is contact.

You know, if I live off in the woods all alone by myself, I likely won't have a lot of external conflict. Maybe I'll have internal conflict. And yeah, if I'm isolated in some way, I won't really be having relational conflicts because there's no contact with anything to have conflict with.

[00:22:13] Vision Battlesword: Right. Except maybe in your own mind.

[00:22:17] Kayla Rodriguez: Exactly.

[00:22:18] Vision Battlesword: Or whatever's going on in the physical world, you know, that you may have contact with is an opportunity for there to be something to be in conflict or conflicting, conflicted. But it, it immediately brought up for me something we touched on before we started the recording, which is like, what about conflicts of principle, value, ideology, you know, philosophy?

There's something going on internally that is a collision somehow, even if it's in idea space. It's like, okay, I hold idea A, but there's something that it's touching, it's making contact with that doesn't feel like those forces are acting in alignment. It feels like those forces are somehow in opposition or are in different directions, dimensions, something like that.

[00:23:11] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah. And a- as you're speaking to this, I, I notice me wanting to, like, throw my hat in the air and be like, "Ugh, conflict is just people not willing to accept that someone else's reality is true-

[00:23:27] Vision Battlesword: For them ...

[00:23:28] Kayla Rodriguez: for them." And I find often that in these conflict space, whether it's thought experiments or debates, philosophies running into each other, that my reality, at least, or if we're gonna talk about some level of objective truth, would be that both of what they're speaking to is true in some way, shape, or form.

Whatever philosophy that they hold in their life and in their communities is true, and I think the conflict arises when the two parties are not willing to, in some way, shape, or form, admit that it's true.

[00:24:06] Vision Battlesword: Hmm. Does conflict have to be inherently personal, or is there any kind of neutral- Or objective conflict.

Like we're gonna get into the relational space 'cause that's the meat and potatoes of a conversation that we wanna have, obviously. But I'm just curious as we're just kind of defining this concept, because I've found it to be helpful so many times and interesting as well to take this concept that we use in a specific way, but then to abstract it and to kind of get more to the heart of like what is the root of this idea or what is the root of this term and then bring that new awareness kind of back into the situation like we're shining a new light on a problem or something to say.

I'm not speaking authoritatively right now, but just thought experimenting. Oh, conflict is the intersection of two forces that are moving in different directions. Now, how do we apply that to community? How do we apply that to relationship, right? That's the kind of idea. So I'm just curious about that.

Like when we talk about conflict, is it really a human thing or is it even possible for abstractions to be in conflict just naturally or objects to be in conflict? Do you know what I mean?

[00:25:25] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, I definitely do. I mean, if we're gonna go very, very like basic physical world with it, I mean, the... What you said earlier just about something being perpendicular.

[00:25:36] Vision Battlesword: Welcome to Engineer Talk with Vision Battlesword.

[00:25:40] Kayla Rodriguez: And Kayla Rodriguez. You know I was a- Yes. ... you know I was a engineer?

[00:25:43] Vision Battlesword: Well, yeah, that's what... Did you know I was an engineer?

[00:25:45] Kayla Rodriguez: Uh, yes, I did.

[00:25:46] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, yeah, so that, that's, that's the joke.

[00:25:48] Kayla Rodriguez: Okay, amazing. Um, but yeah, I'm just thinking about like construction. Like I'm looking at this, uh, cabinet you have over here and looking at all of the perpendicular, um, wood coming together and in some way, I mean, I don't know if you'd really consider that conflict, but in the way that we're speaking about it, it kind of is.

It's like these two perpendicular opposing things coming together.

[00:26:14] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, and that's interesting, isn't it? So that would be constructive conflict-

[00:26:19] Kayla Rodriguez: Yes ...

[00:26:20] Vision Battlesword: if true, right? If, if what we're saying is correct, which is that like, okay, two forces that meet and then can no longer make progress, let's just say. To join two pieces of wood perpendicular would be to create an intentional conflict in a way, but that's constructive conflict.

It's conflict that serves a purpose. It creates structure That's kind of interesting. I'm not convinced necessarily that that is an example of conflict because that feels... I don't know. It doesn't resonate with what we usually mean conflict to be, which is usually synonymous with there being some kind of a problem.

[00:26:54] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, I'd agree with that. Yeah. Um, I was just trying to get it into the, the real physicality, but- Right ... yeah, I wouldn't really... As I was saying it, I'm like, "Hmm, I don't really feel like that's a conflict." But sometimes when I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the basics of a, like the foundations of some complex relating term, I'll try to look at nature As like a more basic, almost primitive place where these

relational dynamics might show up. So now I find myself rattling my mind for some sort of nature conflict that might exist between animals or between, uh... And it's interesting. I- some part of me is like, "No, this is a human relational thing," actually, is kind of where I'm getting to with this. Because if I think about the river and a tree in it, or any of these, quote-unquote, "obstructions" that might happen in nature, it doesn't seem like there's actually a conflict there.

It seems like it's there, the obstruction's there, and then life moves around it, or with it, or carries it. Like, there's a little bit more of a symbiotic nature that happens. So some part of me does wanna, like, label conflict as a, like, human consciousness constructed concept.

[00:28:19] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. The example that you made of the cabinetry feels like cooperation.

It feels like planes of wood and pieces of metal that are cooperating to create a structure, not conflicting. And while you were talking, my mind was just sort of, for whatever reason, deciding to try to break the word itself down etymologically, 'cause I'm also thinking of other words that maybe share some of the roots, like inflict.

I can't really think of another one off the top of my head that uses that root of F-L-I-C-T, but I'll bet it probably means opposite forces. But I know con would mean opposite, right, or to be in opposition, or the, the opposite of. I wonder if it just means two forces that are in opposition. Do you wanna hit the book?

[00:29:09] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah Yeah, let's hit the book ... let's pull out the dictionary. I felt where you were going with that. I was like, "Yes, pull out the dictionary."

[00:29:15] Vision Battlesword: Okay, let's see what we got. Oxford English Dictionary says, oh, "Conflict: to strike together, to clash, to fight or to contend. The strife of natural forces. To contend, to strive, to struggle, to come into collision, to clash, to be at variance, to be incompatible."

I'm surprised we didn't surface that word, incompatible. We were dancing all around it To engage in battle. There's a lot of stuff about fighting and battle. Interesting.

[00:29:51] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah. A high tension. Again, I'm coming back to the word tension. Like everything listed there feels like points of tension, contention, like this.

[00:30:00] Vision Battlesword: So in the most neutral sense, it would be sort of a collision, two things that are struck together and clashing. So you could have things in conflict in that sort of neutral sense. But then when we think of people doing that, striking each other, then that's where we get this concept of fighting, battle.

That makes sense. That makes sense. When we start to talk about it relationally why we would wanna avoid conflict because it feels like fighting, it feels like someone could get hurt. It feels like we might even be intentionally trying to harm each other, or at a, at a minimum, we're trying to use force to overcome an obstacle.

Earlier, I wanted to bring up, does conflict have anything to do with needs? You know, when we talk about the tension, the pressure, the pushing and the pulling, in a human sense, what does conflict have to do with two people who might both have needs that they wanna get met, where someone or s- or, or everyone has a sense that those needs are incompatible with each other?

[00:31:10] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of human relating comes down to getting our needs met. So it makes perfect sense to me that conflict would arise from either an incompatibility in needs or one side of the conflict not having their meeds n- needs met. So yeah, I think needs are just at the root of how we move through the world as humans.

[00:31:38] Vision Battlesword: Well, I feel pretty warmed up, and I like this sorta landscape that we've laid about conflict and really trying to first remove the charge from it and then kinda see where the charge comes back into it. So I know you've had some things on your mind for the past while, and so have I, of course, about conflict in, in a way that's personal to you.

So I'm just curious, what have your thoughts been about conflict, and what do you wanna do with it?

[00:32:05] Kayla Rodriguez: It seems like the concept of conflict and specifically going through rupture and repair conversations have been at the root of everything that's been happening for me the last year- Wow ... at least. Yeah.

There's been a lot of conflict to be navigated either personally in my life or in community for the most part. I tend to, uh, have an avoidance towards the more, like, higher-end collective conflicts that are occurring, which there are plenty of those happening as well. But yeah, I tend to stick to the personal, interpersonal, inner conflicts and community-oriented conflicts.

[00:32:52] Vision Battlesword: What's an example of the so-called higher-end collective conflicts? Are you talking about, like, geopolitics and stuff at that level?

[00:33:00] Kayla Rodriguez: I'm talking about, like, politics, the environment, like, the things that are... that impact the entire collective.

[00:33:07] Vision Battlesword: Uh-huh. Okay. Well, what's a community-- what's the level of community that you've been experiencing conflict in?

[00:33:14] Kayla Rodriguez: For the most part... Actually, no, I had a recent situation at a training I'm a part of where There was conflict that arose within the field and the opportunity to feel the tension of that conflict and also to navigate rupture, accountability, repair, expression in that. So that's probably the higher, I, I don't know if I wanna call it higher end, but the more robust end of community conflict, where we're just not, we're not navigating it just one-on-one or maybe one-on-one with a mediator.

We're navigating it as a group, as a large group, I think it was about 30, 35 of us- Mm ... um, navigating conflict in real time all together-

[00:34:03] Vision Battlesword: Wow ...

[00:34:04] Kayla Rodriguez: with everyone's attention on a specific conflict.

[00:34:07] Vision Battlesword: Okay. Was that conflict something that all 30, 35 people were somehow a party to? Or was it a more isolated conflict between two or maybe a smaller group of people, but that everyone had some sort of, uh, an investment in resolving?

[00:34:22] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, so it was a conflict more between a few people, I would say maybe three to four people in conflict with each other within this community. And that conflict has an impact-

[00:34:38] Vision Battlesword: Right ...

[00:34:38] Kayla Rodriguez: on the rest of the community, especially if that conflict is specifically with leadership. So interpersonal conflict between a few people, but the impact is felt by the whole group.

[00:34:49] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, and this was essentially the conversation that we were having a couple of weeks ago for a couple of hours, was really on this basic topic, which is how do we as a community react, respond to? How do we intentionally evolve our processes for remedying, if you will, conflicts that are happening in the community?

And I think this is a really rich edge, I think, in our overall growth, you know, as we're kind of trying to move into this new collective consciousness and maybe expanded state of awareness, uh, self-awareness, maturity, you know, as a species and, and as a culture, if you will, because we don't deal very well with this as it sits today.

That's what I've been, that's what I've been noticing. At least in, and let's just be clear, you know, in, in our... The microcosm that we are immersed in is this Austin kind of loosely, loosely called conscious or spiritual or transformational community, which is, you know, many thousands of people here in Austin, Texas, for sure.

But I think there's a big opportunity for us to kind of, like, do our own work internally and kind of figure this out, because what tends to happen sometimes is if two or more people go into conflict, like you say, it c- can create an actual fracture among many, many people who have no, like, actual direct relationship to this dispute or this tension or

[00:36:32] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, they have no horse in the race.

[00:36:34] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, and yet here we are picking a horse and, and racing it anyway. W- And yeah, so to your point about the impact and, like, everyone's collective investment in it, it's really cool for me to hear that you've had that kind of group experiment or that group experience of, okay, we've got some people Who have some opposition with leadership in this container, and now we're all gonna, like, kinda come together and try to figure it out as a group experience.

How did that go? I

[00:37:06] Kayla Rodriguez: actually think it went really well. And one thing I would like to clarify about the group experience part of it, much of the, the people that aren't directly involved with the conflict were mostly holding space and possibly expressing impact, but they weren't necessarily engaging in the repair of it.

They were more holding and being witness to. And in that witnessing of the rupture to repair process, I believe just how they were impacted by the conflict, they are now impacted by the repair process. And my belief is we did this at the beginning of our week, the rupture and repair situation, and then the rest of the week, the group felt way more cohesive, way more trusting.

We were able to go so much deeper than we had in our previous iteration. And my belief is that it's a, a result of being witness to the repair process- Hmm ... of a conflict within-- that was impacting the community.

[00:38:10] Vision Battlesword: Hmm. Interesting. So there's something really important about witnessing or being witnessed that somehow changes the dynamic of a conflict.

That's interesting. That, that checks out.

[00:38:24] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, especially if it has to do with the community. Like, if there's a conflict happening in a community and I'm not part of it, but I can feel the tension in the community because of it, of course I'm impacted. But then if they go off and do their clearing conversations and their repair without the community knowing that that's happening, there can still be a level of dis-ease in the community even if the relational dynamic, like the micro of it, was repaired already.

So I think there's something about transparency specifically, transparency in the conflict and transparency in the repair of the conflict when it comes to a community level- Mm-hmm ... that is really essential if you're gonna create a cohesive... Like, if you're gonna come back into cohesion with the whole community.

[00:39:19] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that has something to do with information, like what we were talking about before, information and understanding. Sort of like as a community member, it would be helpful for me to know what is going on here, because we sense, we feel, we notice something's off, something's, there's a distortion.

People are moving differently. They're moving around each other. Like, what's going on? And then also there's something about feedback. Like, okay, the situation has been remedied. The repair has been, has taken place But we, we can discharge our own inner tension or we can settle our own nervous system about the whole thing 'cause we know what happened.

[00:40:04] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, and it's sure, as you were, but actually my experience of it is not just as you were, but like, "Oh, we're gonna set you off better than you were." Like, I actually think it helps not just maintain the community, but help it grow. Mm-hmm. Like, there's a positive generative impact. Communities go through cycles.

Like, when they're first forming, they, they have some level and then they go, and part of that cycle is conflict coming in and dissenting views, and being able to go through that process is essential to create a community that, like, has a solid foundation to continue for many, many, many, many years into the future.

Because if conflict arises and the community doesn't know how to hold it, it's gonna fall apart, and then that's the end of that iteration.

[00:40:59] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, interesting. So you're, you're saying that going through conflict and successfully resolving it can actually make a community improve, ultimately, the culture of a community and make it more resilient.

[00:41:15] Kayla Rodriguez: Exactly. Yeah, and you said before something around people tend to be avoidant of conflict, and I think if you're gonna look at the really large picture societally, I think that that is true. And I think once, like, yes, there's still a part of me that's a little avoidant of conflict, but now that I've seen the impact it can have when it goes from conflict to resolution, there's actually some level of excitement in my being where I'm actually not avoiding it.

I'm like, "Oh, there's conflict here. There's tension here. There's life here. There's juice here." And when we move through and with this conflict, we're actually gonna come out stronger on the other side. So I'm not saying that I seek conflict, but when it comes to my doorstep, I welcome it inside because I know that on the other side of it is more resiliency and a deeper understanding, and we were speaking to this before, but more connection available, more love available.

[00:42:19] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Interesting. Well, it makes me think about intentional evolution and how there's these cycles of evolutionary process. Sometimes we may call it, like, the historical dialectic or something, where you've got the thesis, and that's the status quo, and it's... Eventually it becomes kind of stagnant. It becomes static.

You know, it's, it's no longer in a state of improvement or evolution. And then the antithesis has to come along, which is the equal and opposite perspective, viewpoint, you know, value system, whatever that is. And in that opposition, in that conflict, then we can sort of, like, the energy is created to break the existing system, which then allows for change.

It allows for evolution, improvement. Then ultimately, ideally, we start with a thesis, we go to the antithesis, and we end up with a synthesis, which is that which is greater than the sum of those two parts, that which includes but also transcends, has a new evolved awareness, a new evolved understanding that is actually greater than either of the binary opposites that preceded it.

And it, it makes me think of spiral dynamics too, which I think takes that same formula, like three-part formula, and expands it a bit, but it describes very much the same thing that can happen within a person during their own evolution. It can happen certainly within organizations, groups, teams, tribes, companies, maybe societies.

But where there has to be that kind of buildup of energy within a system that does come directly into conflict with whatever the status quo is, because change-- because that's the only way the change can be accomplished. So it makes sense. In other words, what you're saying is conflict is one part of a process that drives evolution.

[00:44:24] Kayla Rodriguez: 100%.

[00:44:25] Vision Battlesword: That's interesting.

[00:44:26] Kayla Rodriguez: I didn't realize I was saying that, but yes, that's exactly what I was saying.

[00:44:30] Vision Battlesword: You s- you said it, not me. I just repeated it. But yeah, I think that's brilliant. So I mean, that kind of gives us a completely different perspective on conflict in a, in a sense. It's not necessarily to say we are always likely to enjoy it or that it's something that we're going to go seeking out and trying to create any time that we can.

But it also can help us reframe our perspective on it when it's happening as like, "Okay, what is the benefit to this? What is, what is wanting to change in this situation, or what need is being revealed that is not being fully met?" that requires us to input energy into this system in order to get something moving.

[00:45:15] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, and the reality is that, like, even if I'm welcoming conflict at my door, like saying like, "Okay, you're here. Come on in," that doesn't mean that I'm gonna enjoy the process of the conflict being here at home. And it makes sense because to me, when we're at conflict, we're at some level of tender edge within ourselves.

Like, my defenses wouldn't come up, my desire to fight wouldn't come up, all of these things, if I didn't feel like there was something deeply at the core of me that's being threatened. And this is a little dramatic to say, but I think sometimes conflict or contacting the conflict and really coming into the confrontation of it can have the, like, body feeling like, "Oh no, am I gonna be okay?"

Like, am I g- like, "Oh my God, I'm gonna die if I go and try to do this thing right now." There's something somatically that I, I felt it in myself. I'm going to go have a difficult conversation with someone, and my body is, like, trembling and shaking, and I, I keep taking deep breaths and trying to ground into myself.

And then as soon as... It feels like I'm gonna die when I'm confronting the conflict, and then, in my body, not in my mind, and then I confront it, the understanding's had whatever process it's had, and then the nervous system settles down. And I'm like, "Oh, okay. That was fine." And I think those reference points and having those reps of meeting conflict and then realizing, "Okay, I didn't die.

That was okay, and I'm actually better for it," is the only way that I've gotten to the point of welcoming conflict. Because if I'm in consistent avoidance of conflict, I'm never gonna have that reference point. Or if I don't see it shown or modeled in community, I might not have that reference point. So I think there's something about, like, being willing to walk through the fire in order to understand, like, it's all actually gonna be okay.

[00:47:16] Vision Battlesword: Hmm. Well, what have you seen in these recent experiences with conflict in community that has been particularly helpful or positive in terms of moving through the conflict in a productive way? Because certainly, you know, we put this really positive frame on conflict, like, "Oh, it's a driving force of evolution, and it's representative of something that needs to change."

And then also it can be very destructive, certainly. It doesn't necessarily-- Just 'cause we're having a conflict doesn't necessarily mean we're making things better all the time. It's could be a fight. It could become combat in a real way. Someone could get hurt. So yeah, what have you been seeing with that in terms of the ways that we can handle, manage, resolve conflict in ways that tend to lead to those positive outcomes?

[00:48:12] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, I feel like we're getting into the equation for repair.

[00:48:17] Vision Battlesword: Love it.

[00:48:18] Kayla Rodriguez: So many things. The baseline or the overarching theme of all of it is exquisite relational capacity, um, and communication skills. And yeah, to go into a few more of the ingredients, and I, I can, you know, at any point stop me, and we can double-click and zoom in on something.

But one huge ingredient for me lately and a huge ingredient that I've been offering others when they're in conflict is taking on an approach of generosity.

[00:48:53] Vision Battlesword: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:54] Kayla Rodriguez: Like, generous interpretation of what is happening, generous with opening their heart a little bit instead of just closing fully and creating all the walls and protection systems.

It's like, can we be a little bit more open and generous with our time and our energy and our interpret-- mostly our interpretation of what's happening? And generosity in the sense of, can I hear your story and take it in, even if it's different than my own? Can I hear your story and maybe step in your shoes for, like, five seconds and feel what it might be like to be you in this moment?

And can I assume that you have the best of intentions and that you're doing your best with the resources that you have at this given moment? So yeah, generosity has been a huge piece of that. Another piece is, and, and this kind of goes along with the generosity, but just Being willing to own, and this is a whole other conversation we can have we might not wanna double-click on this one too much 'cause it might digress fully.

But to own our projections and to own the impact that we have on other people, and take incredible self-responsibility for what we did, even if it wasn't how we intended it to land. Can I still own that even if this wasn't what I meant to do, it impacted you in this way, and I can be with you in that, and I can apologize for that and be with you in the presence of what you are feeling?

Because my interpretation is that most human emotions, in order to move or settle down, they just wanna be contacted. So if I'm sitting here being like, "I don't know what you're talking about. That's not what I meant," da, da, da, da, da, da, da, like y- the emotion that you're feeling isn't being contacted, so it's not gonna move or settle or get out of the way for us to come back into connection.

It's gonna keep s- stonewalling and holding that line because you're not being met. So there's a willingness to be, to meet and contact each other's emotional state or the inner child that's hurt or... Yeah. So there's something around impact, owning projections, taking personal responsibility. And again, I'm saying this is like relational, uh, black belt stuff.

Yeah. Jedi

[00:51:30] Vision Battlesword: master, right. Exactly. Exactly. There's something I wanna say before I forget immediately, because it f- it feels so, so masterful, to use that word, of what you just described, which is the ability to hold space for your impact without necessarily taking ownership of the other person's experience That's what I heard you describing.

That's some kung fu stuff right there. That's some Jedi stuff. But so powerful. Like, that is the trick. It's almost like I've seen myself in my life intentionally, well, sometimes unintentionally, evolving toward that. You know, where I think we take steps in that direction where it's like, first, can I actually...

And you've, you've described some of these steps already throughout, at various points throughout our conversation. But it's like, first, can I just stop telling my own story long enough to actually listen to your story and see what that even is, and even care about what that is? And then it's like, okay, can I access empathy?

Can I soften my guard, soften my armor just enough to at least try to imagine what it is like to be you? Try to imagine what your experience might be, or your thoughts, your beliefs, your needs. What is your perspective? Can I try to stand in your shoes and imagine what that's like? But then the next level that you're talking about as well is the recognition that we all want to be seen.

We all want to be witnessed, held, understood. And so therefore, if I want that, I could imagine that you also probably want that And that generosity that you talked about, to me, at least in part, means being willing to make the first move in that. Being willing to say, "I would like to make contact with your emotions.

I'm gonna choose and develop the capability to hold myself long enough to be able to hold you and hold space for your experience while simultaneously keeping the recognition that your experience is yours, not mine." And you can be having impact, and I can have a relationship to that impact, and I don't necessarily have to take full ownership of blame necessarily.

Yeah, maybe, maybe there is some responsibility that in, like, sober awareness I wanna take and say, "Yeah, I actually did those things. That impact is directly related to that, and maybe I do wanna offer an apology." But the apology, I think, is less important than to your point about contacting the emotion.

[00:54:37] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, as I, as I heard you start your segment right there, like talking about like, yeah, step one, do this, step two, do this. As much as I, like, want it to be a step-by-step process, I actually think navigating repair after conflict is a, like, set of tools, and they get cycled again and again and again as much as they're needed until you get there.

So in the putting my story aside in order to be with the impact on you and open my heart up to you in that way, um, on your side of that, there's also needing to be a willingness to be seen. And even if at the core of us we want to be seen, our protection mechanisms come in like crazy, and there has to be a willingness to be vulnerable and a willingness to actually express the impact.

I think a lot of conflicts go on and on and on and don't get to the point of understanding because so many people are not willing to be vulnerable. And it makes sense, especially if you're in a conflict where you feel unsafe. The equation of that is like v-vuln- uh, feeling unsafe doesn't bring vulnerability.

But Depending on the level of relational dynamic that's available there, there might be enough foundational safety or safety created in it being held in a container or by a mediator or whatever it is for people to go to that vulnerable state. So holding this energy of vulnerability on both ends as well as generosity, and also generosity in the sense of like we're human with all of our shit and we're going to fuck this up.

Like we are go- I'm gonna do my best to be, to really step into your shoes and hear your side of the story and all of that, and while you're telling your story, I might get triggered and I might not be holding it anymore, and like can you be generous with me in having a moment of trigger? And also can I be self-aware enough to notice my system getting tense and fiery and say, "Wow, I'm really triggered right now.

I'm really wanting to still be in love and compassion and like generosity with you, and I need five minutes so that I can chill out for a second because that activated me." And can the other person receive that and be like, "I get it," and be generous in that moment too? So it's just this like, it feels like putting something in the washing machine.

Like you just gotta put it in there with the detergent and all of the, the things you need and just cycle it around a few times until it is clean.

[00:57:19] Vision Battlesword: I love that. That's awesome. Yeah, I, I really appreciate w- the way you, the metaphor that you created there of like the box of tools, and it doesn't necessarily happen in a specific sequence all the time in the same way.

It's just like, "Hey," it's like, "Okay, I got a tool here. This looks like the right move for this moment." That makes perfect sense to me. And when I was like kinda walking through it step by step, I was really just describing my own evolutionary process of like the tools that came online for me and the order that they did, and maybe different people have it in, in different ways.

But it does seem like th- there are some tools there that we've talked about. You know, we've talked about generosity. Another one that I didn't name specifically or I didn't put a label on that I heard you say I would call benefit of the doubt or sort of assumi- assumption of good faith. It's like at a certain point, I'm gonna have to choose to assume your good faith.

You're not trying to intentionally harm me. You're not trying to intentionally deceive me. You are having your own experience. We may have different perceptions of reality, and that's gonna be a thing that, you know, we both have to accept about each other in, in a certain point in the situation. But, like, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that we may be in conflict, but we don't have to be in combat.

Empathy, of course. Curiosity, greatest hit. And that piece about... There's that piece that's really, really alive and present for me in my life these days about both allowing and initiating that emotional contact. That piece seems like a r- a big missing ingredient to the washing machine in situations that I've seen.

I'll just speak for myself. I feel that way a lot when I'm in conflict sometimes, and I try to express that to people, "Hey, I don't need you to take ownership for what I'm feeling. I don't need you to accept responsibility or blame or guilt or shame or any of that stuff. But I do just want you to say that you heard me."

You know, I do, I do just... Like, if I say, "I feel, I need, my story is," et cetera, I would not like for that to be argued with, right? I would like for that to just be, you know? And then I'd love to hear your side of whatever is true for you. I fi- that is probably my most challenging aspect of conflict in my life right now is not always feeling like I'm, like, heard and received and seen, and, like, my emotions are being contacted in that way.

[00:59:57] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, that makes so much sense. Like, if you're telling... You, you feel like you're taking personal responsibility, "I feel this. I need this. This is my story and my experience," you are giving someone a gem of, like, letting them into what your reality is.

[01:00:14] Vision Battlesword: Yeah, it's vulnerable. It's vulnerable. It's almo- almost like I'm gonna show you my cards first, you know?

[01:00:19] Kayla Rodriguez: And then if you're met with, "Yeah, but that's not what I meant, and da, da, da, da, da," and like, "Well, I'm also hurt in this, and da, da," you are being denied your reality. And no one can actually deny your reality, but that's what it feels like in the moment. But, and th- this is what I'll bring, bring it in when you're talking about this piece, I think another ingredient, ingredient to this is the quality of our attention, and specifically the quality of our attention out.

Because if someone that responds like that, "Well, but this was my side of it," and like, "You don't understand," and, and just isn't willing to contact you and where you're at They have their attention in on themselves. Their atten- they're in their inner world, they're cycling in there, they're angry, they're whatever they are.

But if they just kind of let that go and took all of their attention and just brought it to you and, like, almost, like, put their personality six feet under the ground. Just, like, just put your personality down. And I do this sometimes. Sometimes I'm like, "Okay, I'm just gonna be hollow. I'm just gonna put my personality down and just be with you."

There's nothing else like it. Like, I find that it-- when I do that and I'm meeting someone in their tender parts, even if I don't say anything, there's an exhale that happens. It's like, "I'm here with you. I heard everything you said." And of course, we have the tools of repeating back, "Oh, I'm hearing that you're feeling this.

I'm hearing that these are your needs. I'm hearing that these are your stories." We have those tools, too, but there is something just so exquisite about beautiful attention out-

[01:02:02] Vision Battlesword: Yeah ...

[01:02:03] Kayla Rodriguez: on someone that is like-- it's like I'm creating a container for you to be in your reality.

[01:02:09] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Yeah. And you're right. I, I have that experience, too, of how much peace it brings me, how, how relaxing it is for my nervous system, or sometimes I like to call it the safety system now, just as a, like, an affirmative reframe.

[01:02:25] Kayla Rodriguez: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:26] Vision Battlesword: How, how relaxing it is for my safety system to, to be able to do that, to be able to essentially set myself to the side for a moment and actually just be present with another person's experience, whatever that is. And then weirdly, it also helps to dissolve the conflict from my side. Again, 'cause we're getting information, we're gaining understanding.

It's almost like The conflict in the sense of the battle, the collision, the clash, it ha- it almost happens in the shadows. It happens where the light doesn't shine. And then, like, w- the more light we turn on in the room, the less availability there isn't even is for those clashes. Or it just becomes more evident that there actually, there is no actual conflict.

There's just people with stories and needs and desires and feelings and whatever's happening right now. So that's really interesting. And what I noticed when you were talking is that those tools, like what we might call reflective listening, that kind of scripted process of, "Okay, what I heard you say was da, da, da, da, da.

Did I get that right?" That's like Jedi training, you know? It may seem, it may seem dry or sterile or goofy or unnatural, but that, it seems to me that that practice is like training wheels for being able to now do that more intuitively or being able to do that more instinctively and naturally without having to necessarily go through the formal languaging, but just going directly there, the, the place where the, the languaging kind of guides us to.

[01:04:10] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, for sure. And even in that, like, if we're just saying the words and they're not actually embodied or felt, like, I think there has to be a, a meaning behind it. Like,

[01:04:22] Vision Battlesword: I've been in- You have to be trying. You have to be sincerely trying.

[01:04:24] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah. I've been in plenty of conversations with people where they're just, like, doing the equation of like, "Okay, so now I repeat everything back to them that they just said," and I'm just like, "Wait, but, like, did you, did you hear me?

I feel confused." Like, there's a level of, like- Empathy or, and this is where it comes with the attention out. It's like if someone's attention out is on me and they're repeating back to me, I, I feel like they really got it.

[01:04:48] Vision Battlesword: Yeah.

[01:04:48] Kayla Rodriguez: But if they're still spiraling inside and just, like, doing the prescription, then I'm like, "Okay, I, I don't feel seen."

Or wor-

[01:04:53] Vision Battlesword: or where the worst is when somebody does re- reflective listening back, but then when they reflect what you said back to you, they re-twist it with their own judgments of, "Oh, so what I'm hearing is that you really hate me." It's like- ... what?

[01:05:10] Kayla Rodriguez: When did

[01:05:10] Vision Battlesword: I say that? No. You're making it worse. Stop. But I do think that paraphrasing is very powerful-

[01:05:18] Kayla Rodriguez: Mm-hmm

[01:05:19] Vision Battlesword: when you're doing it sincerely because then it actually communicates to the person you really do understand or you don't, and then that gives them the opportunity to, to add more information.

[01:05:27] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, and specifically that, like, not exactly word for word. I mean, sometimes it can be really beneficial depending on where everybody's at in their relational journey to repeat back exactly what you heard.

But I find myself most often, like, taking everything that they said in, really having my exquisite attention on them. I take it into my system and what comes out is, like, my understanding- Right ... of what they just said. And many times people feel even more seen through my synthesis of what they said because it's like I'm processing it through my system and I'm giving it back to you and I'm like, "Are we s- kind of on the same page?"

And it just lands-

[01:06:07] Vision Battlesword: Yeah ...

[01:06:07] Kayla Rodriguez: better and there's thought and there's care and there's like, "Oh, I'm putting it in. I'm processing. It went through and here it is back to you," instead of just a pure mirror.

[01:06:17] Vision Battlesword: Right. Right. Right. The, the thought and the care feels good I think, but what's even probably the most powerful aspect of that is that it demonstrates to me that you internally get it, that you really know because it didn't just come back to me as some technical reflection.

It didn't just come back to me as my own words reflected back. It came back to me in your words. That demonstrates that you actually processed and understood what I said. And, and it's also important to do that because sometimes you don't quite get it right on the first try. Sometimes, "Oh, what I'm... What...

The way I'm interpreting what you're saying is, you know, da-da-da, blah, blah, blah." It's like, "Eh, you got that part right but actually no, it's not quite like that. It's a little bit more like this." "Oh, okay. So it's more like this in the way that I would understand it." "Yes, now you're getting it." And like all of a sudden we don't have a conflict anymore somehow, you know?

And

[01:07:15] Kayla Rodriguez: that- It's magic ... and that refinement, that refinement process of like going back and forth and finding, you know, the essence of it is the relational gold.

[01:07:26] Vision Battlesword: Yeah.

[01:07:26] Kayla Rodriguez: It's just the relational gold. It's like, "Oh, okay. This is how we be with each other instead of just ping-ponging back and forth." Like- Yeah, we're, we're creating something beautiful here.

And I wanted to add in as we're continuing to go through the, the conflict, like repair process, as soon as I contact you, I hear you, I reflect back to you what it is that I'm witnessing and you're feeling seen and your nervous sys- or your safety system starts to settle and you feel seen, heard, acknowledged, then that creates more space in your being to then hear my stories, hear my feelings, hear what I need.

And then, yeah, we're really going somewhere when we can get there. Like you've softened and now I have my opportunity to receive what I just gave. And then I soften and then it's like, "What were we fighting about? Oh, wow." And oftentimes I find that the, the internal experience for each person, 'cause I, I oftentimes am I'm like, "What?"

I'm like, "How am I choosing this?" But I often find myself in the middle of conflicts in the way of like being really close with two people that have conflict with each other and hearing, like supporting and being emotional support for each side and hearing them both out fully and they're working on like how to get together to resolve the conflict with each other.

And I'm hearing both of their sides and I'm just wanting to be like, "This is the exact same thing. You guys have the exact same stories running in your head, but you're just taking a different role of..." And I don't wanna necessarily say like victim, villain exactly, but you're just positioning yourself differently, but it's the same thing happening here.

[01:09:16] Vision Battlesword: Hmm.

[01:09:17] Kayla Rodriguez: And then when they get together and are able to like witness that in each other, it's like, "Oh, wow, actually we're having the same experience." And that's incredible. It's like, "Wait, how did we even have the conflict?" And honestly, conflict comes a lot of times, I might be digressing a little bit, from miscommunication.

Just like I took in something that you said or something you wrote or something you, whatever it is, and I put it through my system and it didn't land well. Same thing on your end. And now all of a sudden we're in a conflict, but we're actually holding the same values.

[01:09:54] Vision Battlesword: Hmm. In my experience, what I've noticed is that a lot of conflict sometimes comes from our own story predictions that are projections of our fears of like the worst thing that could happen or the worst thing that the other person could do to us or could do Without really checking our assumptions of the other person's intentions.

You know, sort of like something happened, some words were said, maybe there was a heated exchange, emotions were present, and then we separate, and in that information vacuum, we each create the worst case scenario of what the other person could be doing and then react to that, which dramatically escalates a situation that maybe never had to be a conflict in the first place.

You know what I mean?

[01:10:53] Kayla Rodriguez: Yes, 100%. Um, I've been using the analogy recently of like the, like a boulder rolling down a hill, and it's just gonna keep going and keep going and keep going if nothing comes in to, like, stop it. It's just gonna just take track. And I think this is a, a space where, you know, early on we were talking about the pushing against each other or pulling or space, and I think when there's that conflict and then there's too much space between it, it's like we're distorting reality.

I've had that experience before. Like, I'm fully distorting reality, and it's actually not helpful for me to have so much space in my own mind with it because then, yeah, I've just gone on a whole, a whole other track and it's become a way bigger issue. And I've-- I find this when I'm helping my friends navigate their conflicts.

One day it'll be something, they'll tell me the story, they're pretty calm about it. They're a little charged about it, but they're telling me about it. A week later, because it still hasn't been resolved, the conflict has gone to 10X. This person is the most terrible person on the universe and I will never be friends.

And then all of a sudden, emotions are intense and high, and it's because in our inner worlds we've just escalated the fuck out of it.

[01:12:15] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Right. We get ourselves spun up. It's like we're actually having an inner conflict. We're having a conflict with a projection, a story, a fear narrative, whatever it is, and, like, we're escalating internally to the point where- What manifests on the outside could seem to be completely out of proportion with, you know, what a third-party observer might look at and say, like, "What is going on here?

You know, you both are-- One of you is prepared to, like, burn the entire world to the ground." And, you know, it's not clear to me that y'all really have tho- those fundamental of a differences here or that, that, that there's that much, uh, discontinuity to your positions or whatever. But one thing you brought up a little while ago was these roles that we play, like the victim or the persecutor or the rescuer, like the classic drama triangle.

And that's interesting to me when you talk about how as a mediator or maybe just as a compassionate third party to a situation where you get to really receive, like, two sides of a conflict, and you notice the two people are actually sharing the same story or they're sharing the same experience, they may be taking two different roles in the story, or maybe they both even believe themselves to be in the same role in the story and are casting the other one in the opposite, whatever that looks like.

That's really interesting to me. What do we do with that? Or what's the-- How can we use that as a tool for diagnosing what's going on with a conflict and then using that to foster a remedy or a resolution?

[01:14:00] Kayla Rodriguez: Are you saying as the third party?

[01:14:02] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I do kinda wanna get into that. I do kinda wanna get into, like, what's the role of mediation.

That was the original example that you brought up in this group situation, and that's a big part of the conversation that we, we've been having about this whole community conflict resolution model or recipe or whatever it is that we're trying to cook up together here or, or, or get the conversation started.

W- what's the role of, I guess, first of all, models in terms of being able to, like, diagnose the structure of a conflict? Like, "Oh, I see you're taking the victim, you're taking the persecutor, so and so is taking the rescuer." With the light of that awareness, is that somehow helpful to everyone, like, self-reflecting and seeing what their part in perpetuating the drama is?

And then also from a perspective of a, of a mediator or a third party, someone who has a stake in helping people to resolve the conflict to remove that distortion from the community.

[01:15:06] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, I think that it's really interesting because as we, like you mentioned before, we kind of exist in this beautiful bubble that is Austin conscious community or spiritual community.

And I think this stuff gets really tricky when people are highly aware specifically. And I can talk about this in the, in the form of which when people aren't super aware and how to navigate that, but I actually think it's more juicy to talk about, like as evolved and aware humans, like how our skill set is so advanced.

Like, we know, like, the, these people I'm talking about know about the drama triangle. They know when it's in the unhelpful aspects of it and when it's in the more, um, what is that called when you flip the drama? The empowered. It's sometimes called the empowerment triangle, being the conscious creator of my reality instead of the victim, being the healthy challenger instead of the persecutor, and being the coach instead of the rescuer.

And it's interesting because, like, when I look at it and I hear each of the stories, I can see all of it happening. Like, I see how you're the creator of your reality, but I also see you're victim a little bit, and I see how y- maybe you want me to rescue you a little bit, but I'm gonna hold this boundary.

So it gets a little, it gets a little messy in that, and again, we, we go into the relational black belt of the whole thing. But when I'm in there, I do my best. Like, I ha- I have stakes in these things. These are close friends of mine. Um, and my emotional world gets activated by it as well when I hear them talk about each other or the impact it has on me.

There's massive impact on me, and I actually feel like maybe I need to have repair conversations later on after they figure it out because this has impacted me as well. And in that, if I'm really holding, like, a mediator role, the compassionate friend role, the coach role, I'm doing my best to play two parts usually, which is the healthy challenger, like reflecting to them where I wanna, like, push back on their story a little bit and l- like, I, I'll notice where they're, like, so wrapped up in something and I'm like, "Hey, can I, like, help pop you out of that for a second?

Can I give you a little bit of a perspective shift? Can I support you there?" So it's kind of healthy challenger/coach and, like... But the first step actually before even that is just letting the venting happen Letting the, the release valve off. Being there, holding them, validating. Like, "Wow, it makes so much sense.

It makes so much sense that you feel this way. I totally get, like, with this whole experience, I get it. I'm here with you in it. I'm here with, like, the little parts of you that are hurt from this." And just really being with them exquisitely in that. And, like, when space is held for that, and then it opens up room to then bring in maybe a little bit more challenging content.

Like, "Hey, I hear you in all of this. I'm totally validating your reality here, 100%. It's valid, it's real, it's true. And can you welcome in maybe this, this perspective or this other reality that I'm holding here? Can you maybe see how that might be true as well?" And sometimes it can send them back into reaction, and then we have to start the process all over.

But sometimes it's received because they've softened enough, and they've opened enough, and they've relaxed enough to maybe take themselves out of their spiral story and to see another option. And then, you know, playing that with both sides. Um, and in many ways, I'm like, "Wow, I should really stop doing this.

I'm just putting myself in the middle of everything." And I think it's helpful to a certain degree. I'll definitely own that I feel like I've been in, uh, some level of shadowy aspects of it, mostly around trying to, like, control the situation almost. So that can be alive, too. But there's, like, a deep felt heart i- at the core of, like, my desire to help my friends navigate conflict

[01:19:38] Vision Battlesword: I think I've got kinda like the mic drop moment.

Uh, everything you just shared really crystallized something for me in this moment about conflict and community especially, where I'm realizing the drama triangle and the opposite of it, which is the empowerment triangle, that triangular shape is actually really stable. That triangular... That's why it's the drama triangle, 'cause it's just we keep falling back into it over and over again because it's, it's stable.

It's a stable shape. And when you're talking about realizing, like, "I keep getting in the middle," quote-unquote, I mean, s- um, putting myself in the middle of all of these different conflict situations. But you're adding the third point of the structure to create something that can potentially restabilize.

We use the word triangulation a lotta times, or this is a term that comes from, like, psychotherapy or psychology or something. Usually... Well, sorry, I shouldn't say usually, but in that context, I often hear it used as a negative term. Like, "Oh, so-and-so is triangulating on so-and-so," as in sort of, like, getting a third point of view so that you can gang up on someone else with more power or reinforcements or something.

But the term triangulation is also a word that we use in navigation for being able to actually figure out where in the heck it is that you are, because you can't with just two points. You actually need three- ... to get precise awareness, spatial awareness And I realize that oftentimes I think we hide our conflicts out of a sense of shame, or we don't actually go and seek outside help.

Sometimes it might be because people are dug in and they're, they don't wanna resolve and they just wanna be right and they just wanna win. But I think a lot of times too, we feel ashamed or we feel embarrassed or we don't feel safe to ask for help, to ask for that point of triangulation, which we maybe all actually need.

That's what's really coming through for me, is when I'm imagining this web, this matrix network of community, this, you know, all of us in our different points on the network with all of our different interconnected lines to each other. It's like we all need someone to triangulate for us. Each of our relationships could benefit from a triangulation.

I mean, not everyone all the time, but I mean, at some point in time, we're all gonna kind of go through conflict. We're all gonna kinda go through tension, the possibility of a relationship breaking down over something that we're not able to resolve. And how sad is that? And sometimes necessary and sometimes normal and natural, but sometimes not.

If only we had a point of triangulation so we could figure out where we really are and what we're really looking at and what we're perceiving and, and create that awareness and that understanding with each other. And so that's kinda what the biggest thing that's coming through for me about conflict right now is that if we all become willing, rather than putting certain people in community in this role of like, "Oh, we're the expert.

I'm the expert mediator. I don't have conflict. You guys have conflict. I'm the one that resolves it," or something, it's like, maybe I mediate for you today and you mediate for me tomorrow and someone else mediates for the two of us on next Thursday, right? It's like, that's what I'm imagining a resilient, healthy community looking like, is when we all are prepared to lean into the process of triangulation and be willing to accept any one of the roles in the triangle.

The, the empowerment triangle, ideally, right?

[01:23:33] Kayla Rodriguez: Yes, definitely. And Yeah, I think that that's the ideal. Like, if you're gonna try to create the most, like, steady ground to stand on, that'll be it. Like, give every single person within the community, within the relationship, within the whole world, ideally, um, the toolkit to be able to stand in any of those three positions on the empowerment triangle and to be willing and not to put a conflict like, "Oh, that's between you guys, so go figure it out and then come back to us when you've figured it out."

It's like that isolation, that two point, it's hard to locate, like you said. But when it's like, "Okay, I'm willing to be here with you to hold an objective perspective to some degree, to hold the unbiased point, and to just help this move." Like, the more people actually that have their attention on something, I-- this is my belief, the more people that have their attention on something, the faster it will resolve because we're all collectively working on this thing.

And yes, conflict can be navigated and resolved between two people just fine. I've done that as well. But typically, it does take a little bit longer, a little bit more, like, holding energy in me to make that happen. So yeah, I love, like, the point that you're bringing this to around the triangulation and like, "Oh, can we all step into that role instead of outsourcing the expertise to someone that is completely outside of it?"

'Cause actually sometimes that's less compassionate, and sometimes it's exactly what's needed for someone to have no idea of what's going on and to come in with an unbiased perspective. So many ways to make that equation, but I'm here with you on the triangle.

[01:25:28] Vision Battlesword: Thanks. Yeah, I, I feel inspired right now. I feel enlightened and inspired, like I've made progress on trying to figure this out.

Like, what is this community conversation container, whatever this thing is that we've kind of been brainstorming on, what is it, what does it kinda look like? And, and as you know, you and me both, as well as others, have surfaced this kind of tension around the idea of there being a hierarchy to it. You know, or this idea there's, like, some people who sit in this role of adjudicator and, you know, th- there's us and there's them and Kind of a, kind of a weird dynamic.

And it's also not, it's just simply not as stable of a structure as an interconnected, you know, mesh of, let's just say, resiliency. So that's really, that's really cool. And I think reclaiming this word triangulation as a positive, I think is really cool too.

[01:26:25] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, it's a, it's a tool, it's a map, it's a way to get somewhere.

[01:26:30] Vision Battlesword: Right. And just the invitation being, if you're in conflict, ask someone for help. Like, I think that's just how it starts.

[01:26:39] Kayla Rodriguez: It's so basic.

[01:26:39] Vision Battlesword: I mean, how... Yeah, how many conflicts just fester and go into that perpetual grudge match, resentment, cold shoulder, "I don't talk to you anymore," ghosted, blah, blah, blah. Uh, and, and sure, I mean, you know, nobody is beholden to or required to wanna resolve with anybody that they don't wanna resolve with or have a relationship with anybody they don't wanna have a relationship with anymore.

But if you'd like to have peace in yourself and help the community have peace with everything that's going on, just ask for help. It's okay. It's not, it doesn't mean anything's wrong or it doesn't mean anybody's not strong enough, not capable enough. We all need a third point to help us see where we're at.

We all need it. Cool

[01:27:31] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, like we, we are talking in a almost ideal form of like, I truly believe that every conflict could be resolved if there's enough willingness and empathy and all of those ingre- ingredients we put in there. If there's enough and enough resource within the people that are navigating the conflict, I think it's totally possible.

And the reality is also that, like, I've been in conflicts before where I've had to be like, "Hey, actually, I'm just gonna need to exit this. I actually can't come to resolution here because I do not have the resource, I do not have the capacity, I do not have, have access to the parts of myself I need to have access to in order to contact you."

And I also wanna say that, you know, we don't live in a perfect world, and that's totally okay because I'm in a space right now where it's more important for me to tend to my being and take care of myself and self-resource than it is actually for me to resolve every conflict that's in my life. Mm-hmm. So I just wanna bring a little, a level of compassion to people that might be avoiding some conflict because they're not resourced or have the capacity or, uh, or if they don't have the skill set yet.

'Cause if you try going into conflict without these tools I'm speaking to, like, it can just make it worse actually. And that's, again, why you bring in a third party, "Can I a- can I have some help with this?" To help hold those tools with you. But yeah, I think I just wanted to bring in a bit of compassion for myself and anyone who is navigating conflict and actually it's not coming to resolution, and that's also okay.

[01:29:13] Vision Battlesword: Yeah.

[01:29:13] Kayla Rodriguez: Um, and there's juice in that too.

[01:29:16] Vision Battlesword: Yeah. Yeah. If anyone wanted to get in touch with you for your services or any of the things that you do or offer, how would you like to be contacted?

[01:29:28] Kayla Rodriguez: The best way would probably be email. Yeah, my email is Kayla, K-A-Y-L-A.unraveled@gmail.com.

[01:29:38] Vision Battlesword: Okay. Yeah.

[01:29:40] Kayla Rodriguez: Awesome. Yeah.

[01:29:40] Vision Battlesword: I'll put that in the show notes so people can reach you, and if there's anything else you think of that you want me to put in as well, just let me know before I release the episode and I'll make sure it's included.

[01:29:50] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah, for sure. I wanna say one more thing though. Go ahead. I was just really feeling this sense of when we're talking about, like, giving everyone the tools to be able to be that third point in helping navigate conflict, I really feel like that's what we're doing in conscious communities. Like authentic relating, owning our stories, circling, um, psychedelic experiences, all of these things, like gaining access to more self-love, generosity, like I feel the community doing it and, like, creating these toolkits.

And I think they're toolkits for doing life well, but I think they're also toolkits for navigating conflict really well. So I just-- I was feeling, like, a moment of like, "Oh, wow, we're doing it," which is incredible, and I just wanted to name that.

[01:30:40] Vision Battlesword: We are doing it. And like you shared earlier, sometimes weirdly, it's like the more you know...

It's almost like if things were simpler, sometimes people have an easier time of just, "Hey, there's a simple rule here. We all don't do X, or we all do Y, or you did Y and now you owe me X or whatever." And then great, conflict resolved. So there's a, there's a paradox there. It just feels like the spiral upward of our own collective evolution of, you know, first there's, oh, the awareness and the new tool and the new capability, and then maybe there's the antithesis of the shadow of that, of now, "Oh, I get to use the drama triangle as a weapon to say, 'You're just being a victim,' or whatever, because now I've got more information."

And then there's the synthesis of circling that back around to, "Okay, I can see how I am being a victim here," or, "I am being the vi- or persecutor," or whatever it may be. And, you know, we all get to kind of, um, increase our level of sophistication together. Just feels like that's a part of the process that we're in in this conscious community, and I'm just really grateful to you and to the others that want to kind of create this project, if you will, or this, this collective intention to say, "Hey, how can we bring all of our best tools together and really help people to get access to them and practice them together?"

Because that's really what it's about. It's like, great, the tools exist. Are we practicing them? And I think that's what you and me and the others in this movement want to do.

[01:32:18] Kayla Rodriguez: 100%. Here for it.

[01:32:20] Vision Battlesword: I love that. Thank you so, so much for this conversation, Kayla. It was super rich and beautiful.

[01:32:26] Kayla Rodriguez: Yeah. Thank you, Vishen.

I loved every moment of it.

[01:32:30] Vision Battlesword: Thanks for joining me for Intentional Evolution. If you'd like to support the show, there's a couple of ways that you can do that. One is to connect with me directly. I'd love to start a conversation with you if you're interested in any of my offers or if you'd like to be a guest on this podcast.

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